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Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

    Yes I did. Kitty was killed supposedly by a man sick of being robbed by women, which was bolstered by a penny falling from her hand when being moved. The man turned himself in and was sentenced to death with no death record actually showing up for him.
    The man’s name was Harold Hall. The death sentence was commuted to a life sentence. He was released to fight in the First World War and as a result of his service, ended up a free man.

    I’m pretty sure they got the right man.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seanr View Post

      The man’s name was Harold Hall. The death sentence was commuted to a life sentence. He was released to fight in the First World War and as a result of his service, ended up a free man.

      I’m pretty sure they got the right man.
      You should work for the JTR Tour site. They don't know what happened to him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanr View Post

        Well, there's also the notes George Duckworth takes from his walk around Spitalfields on March the 17th 1898. Where it is written that Jack McCarthy was the keeper of most of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street. Some houses were called 'doubles' but were really brothels. The street was full of thieves, prostitutes and bullies.
        https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872

        Also full of protitutes thieves and ponces were the houses owned by the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street. https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872
        But McCarthy didn’t own the majority of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street and in any case a bully wasn’t a lodging house keeper.

        And doubles weren’t brothels, but they were places where unmarried couples could get a bed for a night and some of those couples would have been ‘unfortunates’ and their customers.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seanr View Post

          Presumably the house to the front of 37 is number 38, where Liz Stride was living with Michael Kidney up until she left him a few short days before her death. On the opposite side of the street was the entrance to Miller's Court.
          In the photo there is 38 where Liz Stride had been living, 35 Dorset Street where both Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman had been lodging at the time of their death and Miller's Court where Mary Kelly was so cruelly murdered.
          So we're supposed to believe a serial killer who murdered five women in the Whitechapel area with a random selection of victims, managed to select four women who lived close enough to one another, for their lodgings to be captured in a single photograph. Quite the coincidence. Almost unbelievable.

          And then 13 years later another woman is killed, again with a link to 35 Dorset Street, this time the attack taking place in the premises themselves and the residents actively colluding to mislead the police investigation.

          Yes, I do tend to think it is more likely than not that the Annie Austin murder was linked to the previous murders. That doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Annie was murdered by the same person.
          38, Dorset Street was next door to 37, on the same side of the street as the entrance to Miller’s Court. Is that what you mean?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

            But McCarthy didn’t own the majority of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street and in any case a bully wasn’t a lodging house keeper.

            And doubles weren’t brothels, but they were places where unmarried couples could get a bed for a night and some of those couples would have been ‘unfortunates’ and their customers.
            McCarthy’s ‘notoriety’ can be traced to a single event - the murder of his tenant, Mary Kelly.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

              McCarthy’s ‘notoriety’ can be traced to a single event - the murder of his tenant, Mary Kelly.
              I'm confused, you seem to protect McCarthy yet allude that Maher was his flunky.

              Comment


              • #52
                I have to say this is one of the better illustrations when comparing it to an original. They even have the gaslights in the right place.Click image for larger version

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                Attached Files

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                  38, Dorset Street was next door to 37, on the same side of the street as the entrance to Miller’s Court. Is that what you mean?
                  No, on one side we 38, 37, 36 and 35. On the opposite side of the street would be the entrance to Miller’s Court.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

                    I'm confused, you seem to protect McCarthy yet allude that Maher was his flunky.
                    He was Ann McCarthy’s minder. Of course McCarthy, Crossingham etc needed a few hard men on the payroll to keep order on their premises, but that doesn’t make them bullies or gangsters.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                      McCarthy’s ‘notoriety’ can be traced to a single event - the murder of his tenant, Mary Kelly.
                      No, the context of the notebook is clear on this. It doesn’t even mention Mary Kelly’s murder.
                      McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.

                      There’s a note later in the notebook when discussing Gerhinger and Great Pearl Street where Duckworth notes something along the lines of ‘as McCarthy controls Dorset Street, Gehringer controls the area in Great Pearl Street’. I’ll dig out the reference later with a longer reply on this notebook and McCarthy, and the point about doubles and brothels raised here.

                      This notebook is a significant primary source with regards to the area, imho.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seanr View Post

                        No, the context of the notebook is clear on this. It doesn’t even mention Mary Kelly’s murder.
                        McCarthy is notorious because his doubles are really brothels (in either Duckworth’s or Sergeant French’s opinion) and his common lodging houses are full of prostitutes, bullies, ponces and thieves.

                        There’s a note later in the notebook when discussing Gerhinger and Great Pearl Street where Duckworth notes something along the lines of ‘as McCarthy controls Dorset Street, Gehringer controls the area in Great Pearl Street’. I’ll dig out the reference later with a longer reply on this notebook and McCarthy, and the point about doubles and brothels raised here.

                        This notebook is a significant primary source with regards to the area, imho.
                        You may find this helpful. It shows where Millers Court was (on the N side of the street) and demonstrates that McCarthy ran a few lodging houses in Dorset Street, but by no means the majority of them.

                        In one of the Booth notebooks it was said that McCarthy owned all the properties in Little Paternoster Row. He didn’t. Yes, they are primary, sources, but they should be treated with caution.

                        Doubles were described as ‘brothels’ because couples could get a bed there with no questions asked, but they weren’t solely utilised by prostitutes and their customers.

                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          It was the Austin murder that lead Fred Mackensie to describe Dorset Street as ‘the worst street in London’. And on the back of that, in August, 1901, the American journalist Curtis Brown paid a visit to Dorset Street and encountered someone he called Billy Myers.


                          A Choice Specimen.

                          Most conspicuous of any of the crowd was a man of about thirty, attired in the ordinary coster garb, cap on head and dirty neckcloth taking the place of collar and cravat. He seemed even tougher than the others. Just behind his left ear stretched a long, still bleeding gash. He growled assent to a request that he allow his picture to be taken - for a consideration - and it was noticeable that during the operation not one of the hundred or more bystanders made any attempt to interfere. When the click of the shutter told him that he had been "taken" he raised his cap with a sneering half smile and disappeared in the depths of "Blood Alley" where he had his local habitation.

                          The police constable had stood few paces away, watching the last performance with an odd look of interest, and when the "subject" had gone away he whispered, "You're in luck. You've photographed the most notorious character in Dorset Street. That was Billy Myers, who has been tried for murder twice, and convicted of at least a dozen lesser crimes. He was accused of killing "Black Alf" in the hopfields of Kent two years ago, and before that of the murder of "Fishy Jack" right here in Dorset Street. The men were stabbed in the abdomen, and Myers was acquitted in each instance on account of a lack of conclusive evidence. I don't believe he has ever been photographed of his own free will before."
                          For some mysterious reason, known only to the wise city fathers, the region round about Dorset Street has fewer police than some of the districts of equal size in the fashionable West End. As a result the records for the district show more bobbies killed or wounded here than anywhere else in the City. All the little crooked alleys leading off the street make it easier for the criminals to escape, too. Constable Thompson, who was murdered by a Dorset Street tough only a few days ago, actually saw the Ripper coming from one his crimes but the creature darted into an alley and was swallowed up before the officer could overtake or get near enough to make sure of his identity.

                          Curtis Brown.


                          The full article with some great images can be found here:

                          https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...lackest-london
                          Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-28-2022, 11:08 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Curtis Brown got a number of things wrong in his article, some of which info came from a policeman. Such sources are extremely interesting but as I say they need to be treated with caution.

                            Incidentally, the policeman made a similar mistake to Arthur Harding in attributing the killing of Fishy Jack Meady and Black Jack (not Alf) Stevens to one man. The policeman thought Billy had killed them both and Harding thought ‘Scabby’ (Louis Lewinsky) had done so.

                            The truth is that Billy killed Black Jack and Scabby killed Fishy Jack. By some miracle they were both acquitted of the crimes.


                            https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...-583#highlight
                            Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-28-2022, 11:13 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              You may notice that Curtis Brown’s policeman described Billy as the most notorious character in Dorset Street.

                              In his autobiography, Ben Leeson said pretty much the same thing.

                              If the people at 35, Dorset Street were covering for a ‘well-known local character’, no one fitted that description better than Billy.
                              Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-28-2022, 11:12 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Curtis Brown also seemed to confuse Miller’s Court and Little Paternoster Row. I suspect his Bridget McCarthy may have been Annie McCarthy. She was probably the Mrs McCarthy who evicted Austin from no. 37.

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