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Was Annie Austin a Ripper Victim?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

    I'm starting to get a better handle on it. Maher looks like he supplemented his income by being a henchman to Richardson. I also see the version of the 3 McCarthy's scanned for Rob is much better and have to agree that he's the spitting image of the illustration. And has a moustache like Fisherman lol. Funny coincidence is when he forced his way into Crossinghams he had other guys with him, like the attack on Emma Smith. Richardson was called an Irish bully by some but on paper he was a hospital booster, raised money for causes, a real philanthropist. He seems to me the first modern day Kingpin like from the comics or the proverbial crack dealer who passes out turkey's on Thanksgiving in the USA. Richardson appears to be a gangster.
    By Richardson, do you mean McCarthy?


    He doesn’t appear remotely like a gangster. The only reference to him being a bully, as far as I know, was from Arthur Harding, a man whose utterances have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

    Billy Maher was Ann McCarthy’s minder. He was, in his own words ‘part of the furniture’ at her establishment in Thrawl Street for many years. Ironically for a man who shot another in the jaw, his cause of death was sarcoma of the jaw. When he died, he was still working for Annie at her doss house in Thrawl Street.

    You might find this interesting.

    https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...n-austin/page7
    Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-27-2022, 11:12 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

      By Richardson, do you mean McCarthy?


      He doesn’t appear remotely like a gangster. The only reference to him being a bully, as far as I know, was from Arthur Harding, a man whose utterances have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

      Billy Maher was Ann McCarthy’s minder. Ironically for a man who shot another in the jaw, his cause of death was sarcoma of the jaw. When he died, he was still working for Annie at her doss house in Thrawl Street.

      You might find this interesting.

      https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...n-austin/page7
      Doh! Yes, been on a Richardson thread lately and he's my favorite suspect right now. Freudian slip.

      Comment


      • #33
        And more interesting stuff on Billy M:

        https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...idget-mccarthy

        Comment


        • #34
          One of my favourite research subjects is Bridget Enright aka Biddy the Chiver. Anyone wanting to establish Arthur Harding’s reliability should compare his account of her life to the real thing. In particular, Harding claimed that Biddy caught her husband with another woman and stabbed him to death. This is how Harding tells the story:

          Then she met and married a man who treated her very badly; she was frequently seen with bruises on her face. One day it happened. She went to look for him, found him with another woman and stabbed him to death. She was sentenced to three years for manslaughter, diminished responsibility. She died in Holloway prison.

          The reality is that she was sentenced to 3 years in a certified Inebriate Reformatory for a drink-related offence and on her release went back to live with her husband who outlived her by several years.

          Arfur was an old Cockney spoofer who span numerous dubious tales to the historian Raphael Samuel. I say ‘dubious’ but there’s usually a core of truth in what he says. It’s just that he gets a lot of the details muddled. Another classic example is that he gets Billy Maher and another character ‘Scabby’ (Lewis/Louis Lewinsky) mixed up, ascribing Billy’s murder of the boxer Black Jack Stevens to Scabby. Incidentally, Scabby was one of the other two men who carried out the attack on Maggie Sullivan and Bertie Crossingham.
          Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-27-2022, 12:02 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            I haven’t looked at the Austin case for some time, but buried in the police files somewhere is a recommendation that a PC should be stationed in Dorset Street at the entrance to Paternoster Row because potential witnesses were being intimidated there. Billy Maher lived in Paternoster Row in a house adjoining Ann McCarthy’s shop at 36, Dorset Street, opposite the entrance to 35, Dorset Street where Ann Austin was attacked.
            Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-27-2022, 12:05 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Were Annie's death in 1888/9, then the possibility that she was another JTR would, imho, be definitely worth considering.

              But 13 years later?

              OK, maybe JTR was somehow out of action since Mary Kelly. In prison, an asylum, ill, injured, abroad?

              Personally, I think that the similar modus operandi isn't enough to assume this was the work of the same guy.

              Comment


              • #37
                For reference:

                37, Dorset Street was where Mary Ann Austin was living before she was evicted by ‘Mrs McCarthy’. John McCarthy was her landlord.

                36, Dorset Street was Annie McCarthy’s shop. She was William Crossingham’s daughter by his first marriage and John McCarthy’s sister-in-law, the widow of his younger brother Daniel.

                13, Little Paternoster Row (the ‘Little was dropped in the early 1900s) was where Billy Maher lived.

                35, Dorset Street was William Crossingham’s lodging house where Austin was killed. By 1901 Crossingham and his wife Margaret (née Sullivan) had moved out to Romford. 35, DS was managed by a couple named Moore with the help of Margaret’s brother, Daniel Sullivan.
                Attached Files
                Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-27-2022, 12:17 PM.

                Comment


                • #38

                  This is a great photo. I’m sure many have seen it before. It is said to date from 1895.

                  The woman is leaning out of the window of 37 and the shop next door with the sheet in front of the window is 36. Daniel McCarthy died of cancer there in the summer of 1895 and I’ve often wondered whether that was the reason for the sheet covering the shop window.

                  Beyond that is the entrance to Paternoster Row and then, at an angle, the entrance to Crossingham’s 35, Dorset Street establishment.

                  Apologies for barging into the thread. I’ll now bow out. :-)
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post
                    Due to the lack of discussion of this murder and my interest in it I thought I would ask for everyone's opinions on this curious case. Was Austin a victim of JTR years after the main killings? It was the same doss house (35 Dorset St) Chapman stayed at before her death, she [Austin]was attacked while asleep or choked out into unconsciousness (like Chapman possibly was in the Hanbury Street yard) and her private parts attacked. To me it seems the killer may have choked Austin while she was asleep but when he started ripping the pain woke her up. Also, there seems to be a discrepancy regarding what cubicle she was actually in. Another interesting point for those that like John McCarthy as the Ripper. He owned the doss house at 35 Dorset St where Austin was attacked. Any opinions or new info would be appreciated. This link from a competitor site is pretty good for those unfamiliar with the case.Click image for larger version  Name:	dorset-street-lloyds-270x300@2x.jpg Views:	86 Size:	119.6 KB ID:	790569
                    This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

                    Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

                    Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

                    Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

                    A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

                    The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                      This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

                      Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

                      Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

                      Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

                      A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

                      The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.
                      Ronan was killed by her sister. Pretty straightforward.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

                        Ronan was killed by her sister. Pretty straightforward.
                        I suspect you may be confusing her murder with Elizabeth Roberts' in Nov 1898.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                          This wasn't the only murder site with a connection to one of the canonical five.

                          Kitty Ronan was murdered in Miller's Court in 1909, namely the same room Elizabeth Prater was residing in when MJK was murdered.

                          Were one or both of them JTR victims? I'm open-minded but would have to say "maybe but probably not". It is not unheard of for serial killers to take long hiatuses, reference the likes of the BTK Killer, and the Grim Sleeper (notwithstanding the possibility of unidentified victims). Had it been that an older, sloppier JTR felt an overwhelming urge to revisit his old stomping ground only to find he'd lost his edge?

                          Mary Ann Austin had suffered injuries to her lower abdomen, but neither her or Kitty's murders carried JTR's signature. It doesn't seem characteristic of JTR to murder someone in a crowded lodging house, especially without silencing them first. Hadn't he learned this lesson with Tabram? There's evidence Kitty Ronan's murder had sex with her before the murder, and there's never been any evidence JTR had a sexual interest in his victims outside of paraphilia, of course that is not immutable.

                          A point of interest for those who link JTR to the Thames Torso Murders, there was a woman's remains found in Lambeth, 1902. The dismemberment and dissection was considered crude and unskilled, in contrast to the 1887-89 cases. Again could this be the result of a different killer or the same killer feeling the effects of age and weariness?

                          The likeliest explanation is that these murders were unrelated acts of violence committed against vulnerable women in dangerous neighbourhoods. However, none of us will ever know the truth of JTR's victim tally.
                          hi harry
                          good and interesting post as usual. IMHO I think the torsoman and rippers murders ended in 89 with pinchin and mckenzie. Coincidence? to me probably not.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                            Do you mean McCarthy?


                            He doesn’t appear remotely like a gangster. The only reference to him being a bully, as far as I know, was from Arthur Harding, a man whose utterances have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
                            Well, there's also the notes George Duckworth takes from his walk around Spitalfields on March the 17th 1898. Where it is written that Jack McCarthy was the keeper of most of the common lodging houses on Dorset Street. Some houses were called 'doubles' but were really brothels. The street was full of thieves, prostitutes and bullies.
                            https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872

                            Also full of protitutes thieves and ponces were the houses owned by the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street. https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...75%2C1709.5872

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                              This is a great photo. I’m sure many have seen it before. It is said to date from 1895.

                              The woman is leaning out of the window of 37 and the shop next door with the sheet in front of the window is 36. Daniel McCarthy died of cancer there in the summer of 1895 and I’ve often wondered whether that was the reason for the sheet covering the shop window.

                              Beyond that is the entrance to Paternoster Row and then, at an angle, the entrance to Crossingham’s 35, Dorset Street establishment.

                              Apologies for barging into the thread. I’ll now bow out. :-)
                              Presumably the house to the front of 37 is number 38, where Liz Stride was living with Michael Kidney up until she left him a few short days before her death. On the opposite side of the street was the entrance to Miller's Court.
                              In the photo there is 38 where Liz Stride had been living, 35 Dorset Street where both Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman had been lodging at the time of their death and Miller's Court where Mary Kelly was so cruelly murdered.
                              So we're supposed to believe a serial killer who murdered five women in the Whitechapel area with a random selection of victims, managed to select four women who lived close enough to one another, for their lodgings to be captured in a single photograph. Quite the coincidence. Almost unbelievable.

                              And then 13 years later another woman is killed, again with a link to 35 Dorset Street, this time the attack taking place in the premises themselves and the residents actively colluding to mislead the police investigation.

                              Yes, I do tend to think it is more likely than not that the Annie Austin murder was linked to the previous murders. That doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Annie was murdered by the same person.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                                I suspect you may be confusing her murder with Elizabeth Roberts' in Nov 1898.
                                Yes I did. Kitty was killed supposedly by a man sick of being robbed by women, which was bolstered by a penny falling from her hand when being moved. The man turned himself in and was sentenced to death with no death record actually showing up for him.

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