The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[Observer]

Hi Wick
You used two descriptions for two seperate types of wounds slicing and penertrating. You equated penertrating with stab. Killeen used the word penertrated to describe the wound in question, therefore by your own defination he alluded to a stab surely? You see the doctors actually viewed those wounds. Sutcliffe for some strange reason would stab his victims, and then he would insert the blade into the same wound, resulting in a wider wound, yet still a stab. I'm not saying JTR used a similar method to Sutcliffe, but it's possible that the wound to the groin was a stab initially and then he moved the blade around in the the wound before pulling it free.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick
You used two descriptions for two seperate types of wounds slicing and penertrating. You equated penertrating with stab. Killeen used the word penertrated to describe the wound in question, therefore by your own defination he alluded to a stab surely? You see the doctors actually viewed those wounds. Sutcliffe for some strange reason would stab his victims, and then he would insert the blade into the same wound, resulting in a wider wound, yet still a stab. I'm not saying JTR used a similar method to Sutcliffe, but it's possible that the wound to the groin was a stab initially and then he moved the blade around in the the wound before pulling it free.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer.

Yes, I agree with your point in principal, though you may admit that if the cut is merely 1" deep, it cannot be equated with the motion used by Sutcliffe?

[Observer]

Thats true Wick, those wounds inflicted by Sutcliffe were obviously much deeper.It's possible that the wound was more of a gouge.

[Wickerman]

Thats true Wick, those wounds inflicted by Sutcliffe were obviously much deeper.It's possible that the wound was more of a gouge. As i pointed out Killeen referred to it as a penertrating wound, and of course Brown called it a stab.

Regards

Observer

Yes indeed, so without calling their professionalism into question, maybe the simple answer is that the reporter erred, he describes the wound incorrectly. That the cut may have been 1" wide and 3" deep, which makes it consistent with it being a penetrating wound?

Regards, Jon S.

[Observer]

Yes indeed !

Regards

Observer

[Cogidubnus]

Thus explaining how a square may become a circle or a circle a square?

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

sharp-force trauma

"Blunt-force trauma" is a real term that police and doctors use, which, from what I can tell goes back pretty far-- before television, at any rate, although it hadn't completely supplanted "bludgeoning." From what I can tell, it was an agent-free term to describe a wound over a large surface, that wasn't penetrative, although the skin might be broken a little, and it was used instead of "bludgeon," because bludgeon not only required an agent, but was a deliberate act.

That brings me to "sharp-force trauma." I've heard this on TV in the last few years, but I'm not sure it's a real term. I'm not sure what the difference between "sharp-force trauma" and stabbing would be, other than SFT would include things like falling on a rake, falling on a fence, and other types of deaths that happens on TV a lot, but real life, not so often.

I suppose someone might say "sharp-force trauma" to describe someone getting a penetrative injury from a weapon other than a knife, like being stabbed with the barrel of a rifle, or some people might just like the parallel construction. However, I suspect that it's just TV-writer jargon. I keep thinking about it while I'm reading this thread, which is why I posted it here.

Does anyone know for sure whether this is a police or medical term?

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting conjecture, but is anyone cognizant of the fact that 38 of the 39 wounds were likely caused by a pen knife? Do any of you own pen knives? Or bayonets or daggers of the period? Well, I do, and I can tell you that the pen knife would naturally slice as part of a small stabbing motion, the movement would be close to the body out of necessity,..blade length....and there is no way anyone could mistake any penknife injury with one made using a dagger or bayonet. The pen knife is ill suited for this kind of thing...therefore the choice to use what was in his pocket at the time seems reasonable, although his desire to use it on a human being is unreasonable, hence, we likely have inebriation involved. Bank Holiday. We have a witness saying the deceased was seen last with a soldier, we have a constable meeting a soldier who "was waiting for a friend", off with a girl.

We therefore have the proper celebratory evening for inebriation, we have at least 2 pairs of soldiers in the immediate area that night, we have the deceased seen earlier with one, ...of 2, Poll took the other..., we have the Bank Holiday to explain why a bayonet might be immediately available to one of the assailants....current and ex soldiers could wear full uniform dress, with bayonets, on Bank Holidays, ....and we have 38 wounds with 1 small weapon and one large wound.

So....Its 2 men, or the same man, likely a soldier, stabs her 38 times, and still cant finish her with the penknife so he changes his weapon... while in the midst of a frenzied stabbing attack to deliver a uncompromising death blow. One wonders why he would start with something small and in his pocket when he had something much handier and requiring far less work on his belt.

I think Poll was fearful for her life...and thats why we have no definite soldier ID from her. Which makes me think she felt that a soldier, or the one she saw leaving with Marta, was the culprit. Maybe thats why she skipped town before the first lineup. Maybe thats why she was wishy washy on her ID.

In any event, the murder, however cruel, is nothing like what is done to either Polly or Annie, and its most probable that 2 men were involved...so Ripper wise, this is a dead end. Most of the contemporary officials thought so at the time, but some, when asked to reflect on the murder spree that Fall, may have considered her, but thats likely because they were so baffled that Fall they subconsciously linked the viciousness of the acts in their memories. Ghastly murder. Then another, and another within 10 days. Then a breathing period....and 2 more, same night. Almost gets quiet again, then the last dastardly deed is done.

All horrible. Sure. All alike? Hardly.

Retrospection can be dangerous, as I suggest above, but in our case, getting to look back at what little evidence there was and is to sustain any official position about the Ripper cases, it would be imprudent of us to get caught up in their co-mingling of murders.

Best regards

[robhouse]

Interesting conjecture, but is anyone cognizant of the fact that 38 of the 39 wounds were likely caused by a pen knife?

I am going on memory here, but I am not sure that the wounds were necessarily caused by a pen-knife. I think the way the post mortem was worded was "could have been done by a pen-knife". I think this was to differentiate from the one wound which would have required a stronger bladed dagger, since it penetrated the breastplate. I think it is probably possible that the bayonet or whatever it was inflicted all 39 wounds.

Maybe I am wrong here, but that is my impression.

RH

[Michael W Richards]

I am going on memory here, but I am not sure that the wounds were necessarily caused by a pen-knife. I think the way the post mortem was worded was "could have been done by a pen-knife". I think this was to differentiate from the one wound which would have required a stronger bladed dagger, since it penetrated the breastplate. I think it is probably possible that the bayonet or whatever it was inflicted all 39 wounds.

Maybe I am wrong here, but that is my impression.

RH

The part I emboldened is a fair distinction robhouse, but the reality is that the suggestion itself denotes a blade that is foldable, and as a result it means a thinner blade and shorter than most other knives of the period. So whether it was a pen knife, or whether it was just a diminuative blade....the inference is that it was not something most people would associate with the term "weapon". It was a handy little pocket knife.

On the issue of the bayonet causing all the wounds, I believe Killeen can address that better for you. His summary indicates 2 weapons, 1 small and hardly effective...hence 38 stabs, 1 lethal with a single stab...and much broader, longer and my guess is of different configuration. Meaning the bayonet could have a tri-point blade, a spade like blade, or something akin to a spike. Most of the period resemble short swords in many aspects.

Cheers robhouse

[Cogidubnus]

Pen knife

Here we are again effectively debating what a pen knife is...

Historically it was a slim knife with a longish handle and a very thin triangular blade, (similar to a small scalpel), used for shaving tiny slivers off a quill pen to keep it writing legibly...literally a pen-knife. No way is it anything but a shallow slashing weapon...

However, about this time, the term also seems to have started being used for the pocket folding knife (or miniature clasp knife) of the type described by Michael....perhaps a shallow stabbing type weapon, but not such as would be easy to keep an edge on...

Wonder which Killeen really meant...

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

Here we are again effectively debating what a pen knife is...

Historically it was a slim knife with a longish handle and a very thin triangular blade, (similar to a small scalpel), used for shaving tiny slivers off a quill pen to keep it writing legibly...literally a pen-knife. No way is it anything but a shallow slashing weapon.

In the US we also call pocket knives "jack knives," and "jack knife" is also what we call it when a semi with a trailer (lorry, and cargo, maybe the UK term) slides on ice or slush, and folds at the spot where the cab and trailer connect.

That's pretty much what would happen if you tried to stab someone with a pocket knife. The switch-blade was invented to be a fighting (or, defensive, if you prefer) knife, that folded, so it could be in your pocket unsheathed, but unfolded into a rigid knife with a locking mechanism.

[RivkahChaya]

I been doing Googling, and apparently there were switchblades in France and Italy by about 1820, but they were bigger than the ones we see now. Butterfly knives were around in the Philippines by 1900, but I can't track down a closer year, or find either a specific example from before 1888, nor a definitive statement that they were invented later than that.

However, butterfly knives, from the beginning, seem to have blades like the slim, tapered blades of modern switchblades, and also, sound like something a sailor would have.

So, I'm leaning back toward the original theory that Tabram was killed by a sailor. I don't think there's anything about any of the C5 that especially suggest a sailor, other than the fact that the East End is a dock area, and the fact that they took place over a pretty short period of time suggests otherwise.

Is there any reason a sailor who had once gone as far out as the Philippines, would later be making some kind of short runs that lasted one to three weeks, and then took him back to London? 'Course, I guess he wouldn't have to be a British sailor. But what other Navy would dock in London every one to three weeks?

I'm inclined to think of Tabram as a one-off, at least as far as London is concerned. Her killer could have had other victims in other places.

[Wickerman]

So, I'm leaning back toward the original theory that Tabram was killed by a sailor.

I think you mean soldier?

This is a military issue pen-knife/clasp-knife from the period.

[niko]

Hard to believe.

Nice picture of the pen knife/clasp knife Wickerman !! I find it hard to think that a planed killer like Jack would use a flimsy blade as a pen-knfe to commit his murder's and mutilation's BUT that is only my opinion, all the best.

Niko