The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[Supe]

Dave and Lynn,

Your faith in the forensic skills of Rees Llewellyn is certainly heartening for any remaining descendents, but might just be somewhat misplaced.

Don.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky

As Lynn suggests you'd probably need someone pretty powerful...powerful enough, perhaps, to drive a relatively small bladed knife clean through the breastbone, leading a doctor to believe that a longer bladed knife had in fact been used?

All the best

Dave

Hi Cog

Sorry, what I was trying to demonstrate is that the wound in Nichols throat isn't a 'precise slice' at all, and we can see that just from the description of the knife. the only slice type wounds on Nichols are the ones on her stomach lining, which are shallow and don't even penetrate through the stomach lining itself, as to be expected with a knife that is only moderately sharp.

The rest of the cuts on Nichols abdomen are 'caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards.'

A knife used downwards, sound like stabs to me, a bit like Tabram?

[Cogidubnus]

A knife used downwards, sound like stabs to me, a bit like Tabram?

Hi Mr Lucky

So isn't this precisely what I'm proposing?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Your faith in the forensic skills of Rees Llewellyn is certainly heartening for any remaining descendents, but might just be somewhat misplaced.

Hi Don

Don't know about you, but I'm suggesting as a theory that Rees Llewellyn was wrong - being fooled (by the unusual power behind that final stabbing blow) into believing that a separate weapon was involved...

So what faith?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

the beginning and the ending

Hello Boris. Thanks.

Actually, with a 9th being included, that would mean nine days out at beginning AND end of month. That is at least 18 days. That's already about 60% of the month.

Not too startling.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Umm

Hello Don. Thanks.

"Your faith in the forensic skills of Rees Llewellyn is certainly heartening for any remaining descendents, but might just be somewhat misplaced."

Psst, actually I don't. He committed several faux pas. But he was young.

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Dave,

I'm still in rehab and don't have my books at hand (or even foot), but we may be talking at cross-purposes. That is, Dr.Llewellyn was involved with the Nichols post mortem and Dr. Killeen performed the autopsy on Tabram. Or did I misconstrue what you were saying (something entirely possible and for which I apologize if that's the case).

Don.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Don

You are of course right in that it was Killeen who performed the Tabram PM, and who I reckoned was fooled by the sheer power of the final knife blow...sorry!

But what then was the point you were trying to make regarding Llewellyn? It was, after all, Mr Lucky who seemed to esconse Llewellyns argument regarding the exact length of the blade in the Nicholls case...

For my own part, without being over specific, I could easily see the Nicholls case as a logical escalation, bladewise, from Tabram.

(I make no further comment on "precision" - just the difference in technique dictated by either a shorter or longer blade)

Hope you're well and making a decent recovery,

All the best

Dave

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky

So isn't this precisely what I'm proposing?

All the best

Dave

Yes, I believe we are in agreement, here !

[Fisherman]

Hi Don

Don't know about you, but I'm suggesting as a theory that Rees Llewellyn was wrong - being fooled (by the unusual power behind that final stabbing blow) into believing that a separate weapon was involved...

So what faith?

All the best

Dave

I am getting more confused the more posts on this thread I read. Are you speaking of Llewellyn here, or of Dr Killeen? Nobody seems to have questioned the name for some reason.

The best,
Fisherman

[caz]

So are we saying here that when the Yorkshire Ripper used a hammer, he was Peter Sutcliffe, but when he used a screwdriver he was Bert Winterbottom?

And when the West Croydon double eventer used his bare hands round a prostitute's throat, he was Leigh Thornhill, but when he used a lump of wood to cave in a non-prostitute's head he was Shane Boggs?

I am not saying that Tabram must have been killed by the ripper, or even that it's more likely than not. I am saying that I see absolutely no logical reason to eliminate him from enquiries. I see her murder as an unplanned, instinctive reaction to something she said or did, that made her killer (probably a punter and a stranger) see red and stab her over and over again with whatever weapon(s) he happened to have on him at the time.

Of course this could have been a one-off, but then a man with such a filthy, murderous temper is unlikely to have done such a thing once and once only. If this was the ripper, however, one can well imagine him reliving the attack constantly in his mind in the run up to Nichols, determined to go prepared for the least excuse to serve the next one 'right'. His mentality would be "They are all the same, these bloody women".

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

Of course this could have been a one-off, but then a man with such a filthy, murderous temper is unlikely to have done such a thing once and once only.

Surely, through history, even today, there must be many instances of one off attacks - the result of specific circumstances; maybe regretted, never repeated. Of course, if the killer of Tabram was a soldier (or soldiers) they might have been deployed abroad soon after and any recurrences of their brutality would need to be looked for in India or some other colony.

If this was the ripper, however, one can well imagine him reliving the attack constantly in his mind in the run up to Nichols, determined to go prepared for the least excuse to serve the next one 'right'. His mentality would be "They are all the same, these bloody women".

Or about a thousand other trains of thought any fiction writer could compose - pure speculation.

As I have said, I certainly do not rule Tabram in or out as a Ripper victim - although I see her as MUCH less likely than I used to. But the fact is she is neither essential to "Jack's" evolution, does not have to have been murdered by him, nor is she required as part of his myth.

Phil

[Supe]

Christer,

Nobody seems to have questioned the name for some reason.

I thought I was suggesting, in a perhaps politely obfuscatory manner, that Dave had, indeed, confused Kileen and Llewellyn. It was Kileen who hypothesized two assailants in the case of Martha and Llewellyn who first proposed that Jack was left-handed, only to recant -- sort of -- later. Both have, by their opinions in the separate cases, muddied the waters a bit.

Don.

[lynn cates]

myth

Hello Don. Just a bit? read a book or article just the other day which indicated there MUST be a left hand assailant.

How many more years for this one?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hi Don!

Yes, this is all very true, although I think there is a chance that Llewellyn was right in the long shot about the abdominal wounds having been inflicted prior to the neck wounds in Nicholsīcase.
Could have been the other way around too, of course, and my stance is to some extent governed by my feeling that Lechmere was the cutter. If so, he may have decided to go for the neck cut when he realized that somebody was approaching, obliterating any chance that Nichols would survive long enough to tell the tale.

But thatīs for another thread!

The best,
Fisherman