The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[John G]

Hi John,

Again, since we have the data that unequivocally lists 11 murders or attacks by knife in the Whitechapel area alone in 1888 that were Unsolved, 17 for the years total in 1888 for all of England, as you suggest, isn't likely an accurate number.

What I referred to with the Old Bailey mention is the number of offenses that came before the court that involved the usage of a knife,... not specifically murder crimes, and not specifically against women. Im trying to portray the use of a knife generally in violent crime at that time as common, based on those kinds of cases. The fact that we are just discussing murders that involved slit throats isn't the criteria that really matters when assessing how many people may have been involved in the 11 unsolved murders in Whitechapel, its the number of crimes when knives are the weapon. Slit throats were far more common in our past than in our present day world. If a scuffle escalated between a man and woman and it resulted in the women being cut across the throat by a knife, it just shows us that people carried knives and that knives were used in violent crimes.

Which diminishes the notion that knife crimes in general were rare and therefore only committed by a single madman on the streets of Whitechapel. Martha Tabram was certainly killed by a knife and a larger weapon, that's because many violent people carried knives ...and on that night, Soldiers retired or active, were legally allowed to carry bayonets.

It was not because one man was running around with a knife.

Cheers John

Hi,

Outside of the C5 and Tabram, which I believe to be connected, there was only one other possible murder in Whitechapel in 1888: Emma Smith, although she initially survived the attack and was conscious for several days. Annie Millwood was also assaulted, but she seems to have eventually died of natural causes, so not murder, and her throat wasn't targeted. Moreover, the Eastern Post suggested that her injuries were maybe self-inflicted,

Ada Wilson wasn't murdered but the nature of the assault was very unusual in my opinion, and her throat was targeted by a knife. Like Begg (2004), I'm inclined to think that she may have been a prostitute and that the use of the knife and targeting of the throat may fit JTR'S MO. She therefore may have been an early victim of a fledgling, inexperienced serial killer.

Cheers,

John

[Tom_Wescott]

Ada Wilson was attacked by her husband. As for earlier victims, don't forget Emily Horsnell and Margaret Hames.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Ada Wilson was attacked by her husband. As for earlier victims, don't forget Emily Horsnell and Margaret Hames.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Why do you think Ada was attacked by her husband

[John G]

Why do you think Ada was attacked by her husband

Yes, I wondered about that, it's certainly not a mainstream view. Mind you, I've just downloaded The Bank Holiday Murders by this fellow called Tom Westcott- maybe that'll provide the answer!

Seriously. though, looking forward to reading the book, it's certainly received excellent reviews.

[John G]

Ada Wilson was attacked by her husband. As for earlier victims, don't forget Emily Horsnell and Margaret Hames.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I really must start to read The Bank Holiday Murders, which I've recently downloaded! I'm not completely ruling out Emma Smith as an early JtR victim. She was consider so by Walter Dew, despite her claim to have been attacked by a gang, was reluctant to go to the hospital and didn't initially report the assault to the police. And Begg (2004) considered there was a remote possibility that Drew was correct.

Best wishes,

John

[Sam Flynn]

Hello John

I slightly misquoted: the findings suggest that 11 adult women were murdered by knife in 1887 and 11 in 1889, whilst 17 were murdered by this method in 1888. It seems that this was an incredibly rare crime- except maybe in 1888 Whitechapel, of course!

Not all "successful" killings by knife would have been recorded as murders, but as manslaughter or death by misadventure. Not all potentially fatal knife attacks - indeed, probably only a minority - led to death, only injury. And, of those that result in injury, not all would have been brought to the attention of the courts, the police, or even the press.

In short, we must treat these stats with extreme caution.

Mind you, there's little doubt that the type of knife-attack inflicted on Martha Tabram was extremely rare.

[Colin Roberts]

"I need not do more than merely allude to the extraordinary series of murders which occurred in Whitechapel, which gave rise to the greatest excitement in London."

James Monro,

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

~~~

Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

For the Year 1888

Presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty

London: Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1889

---

Monro must have been quite the idiot!

If he had simply recognized the gross incompetence and statistical ineptitude of the Superintendent Registrar of the Whitechapel Registration District and Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England - that so many of us have been able to discern from behind our keyboards - then he would have grasped the trivial nature of these murders, and would not have squandered the precious resources of the Metropolitan Police Service by dispatching unneeded reinforcements to H Division, and conducting extravagant house-to-house searches therein.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello JohnNot all "successful" killings by knife would have been recorded as murders, but as manslaughter or death by misadventure. Not all potentially fatal knife attacks - indeed, probably only a minority - led to death, only injury. And, of those that result in injury, not all would have been brought to the attention of the courts, the police, or even the press.

In short, we must treat these stats with extreme caution.

Mind you, there's little doubt that the type of knife-attack inflicted on Martha Tabram was extremely rare.

I think that's a better version of my answer to the issue about the knife issue Sam, its not just the completed kills we need to look at, its also things like men brandishing knives in the area, something that need not be on any judicial record.

With Martha, yes unusually brutal primarily due to the number of stabs, not necessarily due to the fact that she was killed with 2 bladed weapons. And perhaps somewhat addressed by the circumstantial evidence, including the right of soldiers to carry weapons on that night that could be just like the type she received her larger wound with. Holidays call for intoxication, intoxication can lead to violent behaviours.

Cheers Sam

[Michael W Richards]

"I need not do more than merely allude to the extraordinary series of murders which occurred in Whitechapel, which gave rise to the greatest excitement in London."

James Monro,

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

~~~

Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

For the Year 1888

Presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty

London: Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1889

---

Monro must have been quite the idiot!

If he had simply recognized the gross incompetence and statistical ineptitude of the Superintendent Registrar of the Whitechapel Registration District and Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England - that so many of us have been able to discern from behind our keyboards - then he would have grasped the trivial nature of these murders, and would not have squandered the precious resources of the Metropolitan Police Service by dispatching unneeded reinforcements to H Division, and conducting extravagant house-to-house searches therein.

No-one is disputing that there were indeed murders of the ilk described by Monro Colin, nor that the use of statistics can be quite useful when assessing crimes of this nature. The issue is whether they must supersede any environmental impact on those statistics....for example, along with the 11 Unsolved Whitechapel crimes in 1888, we must also consider the factors that might have influenced violence over that year, and preceding periods.

Bloody Sunday the end of 87, the trial and hanging of the men who intended on executing the Jubilee Plot, the strikes, the planned assassination of Lord Balfour, the numbers of spies...criminals...and known violent offenders living in or near that area at the time. The Parnell Commission, where secrets were for sale for thousands of pounds....might that be enough to kill someone for in the LVP?

What the stats say is that the unusual nature of the events suggests few people would have been involved, where the facts say that there were likely reasons to kill people for other than a malady of the mind.

Liz Strides murder is anything but "extraordinary",so why should she be considered as a Ripper victim? Either a supposed interruption or a change of heart by the killer has been suggested, neither have any evidence attached to them, ...the truth is more banal...she was killed on a night when someone more likely to have been "ripped" by Jack was killed, in the same area.

Cheers Colin

[Colin Roberts]

along with the 11 Unsolved Whitechapel crimes in 1888, ...

11 ???

[Sam Flynn]

And, of those [attacks] that resulted in injury, not all would have been brought to the attention of the courts, the police, or even the press.

Reflecting on that... if Emma Smith hadn't died of her injuries, we might never have heard of her. Now there's a thought.

[RockySullivan]

Do the excessive stab wounds to martha tabram suggest she was killed by someone who knew her? Or are they more likely from the bayonet of the soldiers she was apparently with that night? Would a soldier she never met stab her 40 times? It sounds like her murder was personal.

[Harry D]

Do the excessive stab wounds to martha tabram suggest she was killed by someone who knew her? Or are they more likely from the bayonet of the soldiers she was apparently with that night? Would a soldier she never met stab her 40 times? It sounds like her murder was personal.

I agree. I have a hard time buying Tabram as a Ripper victim and don't understand the clamour to have her included into the canon. If Tabram had been a 'trial run', as some argue, would JTR have really moved onto an entirely new MO which focused on abdominal mutilations only three weeks later? The Ripper was living out some kind of depraved fantasy with the canonical five murders (give or take Stride), as defined by the post-mortem signature of the attacks, something notably lacking in Tabram's frenzied attack.

And then some people argue that Tabram might have offended the Ripper, which would explain the ferocity of the attack, which is purely speculative and twisting the facts to suit the argument.

Finally, the "rarity" of such knife crimes has also been put forward as a reason for considering Tabram as a JTR victim. On that basis, you would also have to include McKenzie, Coles, et al. as Ripper victims.

Tabram only has two things going for her: the crime location and the positioning of the body. The rest of the so-called 'similarities' between her and the canonical five are so negligible as to be insignificant.

[RockySullivan]

I agree. I have a hard time buying Tabram as a Ripper victim and don't understand the clamour to have her included into the canon. If Tabram had been a 'trial run', as some argue, would JTR have really moved onto an entirely new MO which focused on abdominal mutilations only three weeks later? The Ripper was living out some kind of depraved fantasy with the canonical five murders (give or take Stride), as defined by the post-mortem signature of the attacks, something notably lacking in Tabram's frenzied attack.

And then some people argue that Tabram might have offended the Ripper, which would explain the ferocity of the attack, which is purely speculative and twisting the facts to suit the argument.

Finally, the "rarity" of such knife crimes has also been put forward as a reason for considering Tabram as a JTR victim. On that basis, you would also have to include McKenzie, Coles, et al. as Ripper victims.

Tabram only has two things going for her: the crime location and the positioning of the body. The rest of the so-called 'similarities' between her and the canonical five are so negligible as to be insignificant.

Yea but pearly poll & Martha living at Dorset implies she may be a ripper murder....just that her murder was "personal"

[Michael W Richards]

11 ???

Yes there are 13 in 1888, but at least 2 are certainly not Jack the Ripper murders...including Emma Smiths.

Cheers