The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[Ghost]

What are the statistics for uteri removing killers...cuz according to the general consensus there were 2 seperate killers removing that organ from victims in 1888.

Well, I believe The Unabomber lived in the SF Bay area during the Zodiac killings and in Chicago during the Tylenol killings without police being able to connect him. That said, that fact has always brought suspicion on him for both of those sets of crimes.

Generally, your point is a very good one. And would point toward a Jack-Torso connection.

[Ghost]

Ghost that's a pretty good idea. I'm sorry to hijack so many threads and talk about torso. The one thing is....i'm not sure there's anything to indicate that torso was a medical student/dr/surgeon. It's of course possible just like the ripper being medical profession is a well accepted theory. I personally wonder if torso wasnt some kind of construction worker or someone who wouldve had access to new scotland yard vaults since the building was in construction phase.

Agree that's a possibility. Otherwise how did he get the body there.

[Michael W Richards]

Another thing with regards to linking all of these murders is that many people always assume that just because all except Tabram had their throats cut, this automatically links then to the same killer. It does not, the majority of murders involving knives back then was by throat cutting.

Today very few knife related murders involve throat cutting.

A salient point many omit when considering the prevalence of these kinds of acts Trevor. Liz Strides murder was unremarkable in that context.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello,

Following the Tabram murder the East London Advertiser opined that "The statistics or returns of criminal offences show that, in proportion, there is really no more crime, either of a greater or lesser degree, in East London than in any other part of the metropolis or, for that matter, Great Britain."

In fact, at the time murder in Whitechapel was very uncommon. The Annual Report of the Sanitary Conditions of Whitechapel listed no murders at all in 1886 or 1887. And only one murder was listed for the entire Whitechapel area in 1889 and one in 1890: see Keppel and Birnes (2009).

Moreover, modern analysis suggests that murders involving trauma to the genital area are incredibly rare, amounting to just 0.1% of all murder cases. And characteristics of both posing and mutilation occur in just 0.05% of cases: see Keppel et al. (2005).

Therefore, taking into account the overall Whitechapel murder rate of the period, it can be estimated that you would expect a Tabram-style murder to occur in Whitechapel once every 2,000 years and a MJK- style murder once every 4,000 years!

To my mind it is a serious mistake to focus on direct similarities of MO. That is just the sort of mistake that was initially made by the police in relation to the Jean Jordan murder. They refused to confirm that she was a Yorkshire Ripper victim because, they argued, there was nothing to suggest she was a prostitute, she had not been sexually assaulted, the mutilations were more extensive than other YR victims and, unlike any other confirmed YR killings, she had been decapitated.

Of course, it was subsequently determined that she was killed by the Yorkshire Ripper. Sutcliffe later explained variations in Mo by revealing that he became frustrated that he couldn't find an incriminating £5 note, leading him to give vent to his frustrations by extensively slashing the body, something that made even him vomit. He also explained that he decapitated the victim because it was his intention to "create a mystery about the body."

In other words, he didn't want the police to realize that he had crossed the Pennines into Lancashire.

In conclusion, Martha Tabram was a very rare type of a murder and, considering what was to happen in Whitechapel, a small geographical district of London, as 1888 progressed results, to my mind, in the conclusion that the odds are overwhelming that she was, indeed, a JTR victim.

Best wishes,

John

John,

Your post above isnt an accurate accounting of murder in Whitechapel or London of that time. You quote that "The Annual Report of the Sanitary Conditions of Whitechapel listed no murders at all in 1886 or 1887. And only one murder was listed for the entire Whitechapel area in 1889 and one in 1890: see Keppel and Birnes ", when clearly just the unsolved murders alone in that area exceed these numbers. From the Annual Publication of Judicial Statistics for 1887, published in September of 1888;

"The number of murders in proportion to population shows, in a series of years, with some fluctuations, a steady tendency to decrease. In 1886-7 the number of murders reported was as 1 to 173,564; in 1885-6 it was as 1 to 163,105; in 1884-5 as 1 to 202,181; in 1883-4 as 1 to 159,602; in 1882-3 as 1 to 161,968; and in 1881-2 as 1 to 153,143.So far the returns show a steady and progressive improvement in the proportion of population of crime, criminals, and opportunities for crime such as are afforded by houses of bad character. But the following passage from the report is less satisfactory:- "In the case of murders as reported to the police, for the last ten years, from 1877-8 to 1886-7, those committed upon persons aged above one year are distinguished from those committed upon infants aged one year and under. It is thus shown, as regards the murder of infants aged one year and under, that in 1886-7, of the 163 murders reported, 77, or 47.2 per cent, were murders of infants aged one year and under; in 1885-6 of the 171 murders reported, 78, or 45.6 percent; in 1884-5, of the 136 murders reported, 55, or 40.4 per cent, in 1883-4 of the 170 murders reported, 82, or 48.2 per cent; and in 1882-3, of the 165 murders reported, 90, or 54.5 per cent, were murders of such class. Thus for the last three years the percentage of infant murder has been increasing somewhat rapidly, though it shows a diminution as compared with the two years 1883-4 and 1882-3. On the other hand, the number of murders in proportion to population shows, in a series of years, with some fluctuations, a steady tendency to decrease. In 1886-7 the number of murders reported was as 1 to 173,564; in 1885-6 it was as 1 to 163,105; in 1884-5 as 1 to 202,181; in 1883-4 as 1 to 159,602; in 1882-3 as 1 to 161,968; and in 1881-2 as 1 to 153,143. There is on the whole a corresponding decrease in the proportion of other serious crimes, but in the case of attempts at suicide the proportion seems to be almost constant. It was 1 to about 23,000 in 1886-7, and 1 to about 24,000 in 1881. It fell to 1 in about 25,000 in 1885-6, and rose to 1 in about 22,000 in 1883-4, but it will be observed that between 1881 and 1886 the proportion has risen in a manner that suggests some disquieting reflections."


There is no need to re-write history on the kind of violence that occurred in that area at that time; there were many, many reports of violence threatened or committed with knives during that year.

Some folks cite the number of women who were specifically cut across the throat with a knife as an indicator that these kinds of knife crimes were rare in the area, but they were not. Just look through the press and the records of the Old Bailey and you'll clearly see that knives were most often the weapon used against both men and women. No surprise really, even very poor people had knives. Kate Eddowes had one on her.

If you say that the small number of women in Whitechapel that were killed by throat cutting that year is due to very few men doing that sort of thing in the area, Ill just say that in addition to the five women assumed to have been Ripper victims in 1888 there were also 7 additional unsolved murders or attacks that involved knives, (Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson, Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, The Torso found Oct 3rd, Annie Farmer, Rose Mylett), and that's only the unsolved crimes. Some we can exclude easily as Ripper attacks, still leaving quite a few that involved knives used against women by unknown men.

Serial Killer data is Im sure valuable when assessing people who have been caught killing serially, or when serial killing is strongly indicated by the physical and circumstantial evidence of the crimes, but when assessing an area and time period when we know many people walked the streets with knives and knife crimes were relatively common, I don't think assuming that all murders committed against women with knives was done by a serial killer is helpful or warranted.

For example...Martha Tabram. Clearly she was soliciting that night, we have testimony from her friend that she was soliciting with her and they were with soldiers, we have testimony from a constable that he saw a soldier in the area near the time of the murder "waiting for a mate", and we have evidence that she was stabbed 38 times with a pen knife, and once with a blade that may have been a bayonet. On a Bank Holiday, when soldiers can legally wear bayonets. Many stabs with a pen knife. Soldiers. Possibly a bayonet. Evidence that soldiers were out in pairs that night. Soliciting soldiers. How does that look like a post mortem mutilating serial killer just learning his craft.... instead of the infinitely more likely angry, intoxicated soldier or soldiers either punishing or robbing a street whore?

When you have to alter a killers known traits.... using repeat offenses, to validate a murder as evidence of a continuing "series" by that same killer, youre not investigating a murder at all...your investigating a serial killer. Presumption.

I presume that the significant differences in the murders of Polly and Annie are due to experience and venue, not due to different hands at work. That's as far as Ive come....which is a long way from the opinions of the fella who in around 1988 started studying these cases. Someone who bought his first book on the subject expecting to learn about a madman in the LVP who killed at least 5 women. Subsequent study has revealed that what people accept as the standard facts about these cases are in fact very often just opinions.

Cheers

[John G]

Hello Michael,

I'm not really sure why you say that my statistics, which came from respected organizations and for which I have provided citations, are wrong. In fact, your statistics clearly refer to a much wider area than Whitechapel, possibly Uk-wide, and seem to apply to reported murders rather than murder convictions.

In fact, they seem to suggest an annual murder rate of between 1 in 150000 and 1 in 200000 of the population, which I would have thought accord very nicely with my statistics!

Here's some more statistics. Between 1880 and 1890 there were only 162 murder trials at the Old Bailey of which 58% resulted in a conviction: see Gray D, London's Shadow: The Dark Side of the Victorian City (2010). By my calculations that amounts to about 10 conviction per year and, presumably, that's London-wide.

Moreover, on the 27/10/2010 there was a post on this site referring to research by Colin Roberts showing that in 1887 and again in 1888 just 11 adult women were murdered by knife in the whole of England, although I have been unable to find the research so would be very much obliged if Colin, or anyone else, could refer me to the statistics.

You list other knife attacks on women in 1888, such as Ada Wilson. Well, it has been argued that some of these attacks were failed Ripper murders, or early attempts by a fledgling serial killer. Personally, I think Ada Wilson fits very nicely in that category!

[John G]

Hi,

This is the link referring to Colin Roberts' statistics for UK adult women murdered by knife:

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-5135.html

I slightly misquoted: the findings suggest that 11 adult women were murdered by knife in 1887 and 11 in 1889, whilst 17 were murdered by this method in 1888. It seems that this was an incredibly rare crime- except maybe in 1888 Whitechapel, of course!

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,

This is the link referring to Colin Roberts' statistics for UK adult women murdered by knife:

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-5135.html

I slightly misquoted: the findings suggest that 11 adult women were murdered by knife in 1887 and 11 in 1889, whilst 17 were murdered by this method in 1888. It seems that this was an incredibly rare crime- except maybe in 1888 Whitechapel, of course!

Hi John,

Again, since we have the data that unequivocally lists 11 murders or attacks by knife in the Whitechapel area alone in 1888 that were Unsolved, 17 for the years total in 1888 for all of England, as you suggest, isn't likely an accurate number.

What I referred to with the Old Bailey mention is the number of offenses that came before the court that involved the usage of a knife,... not specifically murder crimes, and not specifically against women. Im trying to portray the use of a knife generally in violent crime at that time as common, based on those kinds of cases. The fact that we are just discussing murders that involved slit throats isn't the criteria that really matters when assessing how many people may have been involved in the 11 unsolved murders in Whitechapel, its the number of crimes when knives are the weapon. Slit throats were far more common in our past than in our present day world. If a scuffle escalated between a man and woman and it resulted in the women being cut across the throat by a knife, it just shows us that people carried knives and that knives were used in violent crimes.

Which diminishes the notion that knife crimes in general were rare and therefore only committed by a single madman on the streets of Whitechapel. Martha Tabram was certainly killed by a knife and a larger weapon, that's because many violent people carried knives ...and on that night, Soldiers retired or active, were legally allowed to carry bayonets.

It was not because one man was running around with a knife.

Cheers John

[MrBarnett]

Hi John,

Again, since we have the data that unequivocally lists 11 murders or attacks by knife in the Whitechapel area alone in 1888 that were Unsolved, 17 for the years total in 1888 for all of England, as you suggest, isn't likely an accurate number.

What I referred to with the Old Bailey mention is the number of offenses that came before the court that involved the usage of a knife,... not specifically murder crimes, and not specifically against women. Im trying to portray the use of a knife generally in violent crime at that time as common, based on those kinds of cases. The fact that we are just discussing murders that involved slit throats isn't the criteria that really matters when assessing how many people may have been involved in the 11 unsolved murders in Whitechapel, its the number of crimes when knives are the weapon. Slit throats were far more common in our past than in our present day world. If a scuffle escalated between a man and woman and it resulted in the women being cut across the throat by a knife, it just shows us that people carried knives and that knives were used in violent crimes.

Which diminishes the notion that knife crimes in general were rare and therefore only committed by a single madman on the streets of Whitechapel. Martha Tabram was certainly killed by a knife and a larger weapon, that's because many violent people carried knives ...and on that night, Soldiers retired or active, were legally allowed to carry bayonets.

It was not because one man was running around with a knife.

Cheers John

I wonder how many crimes involving a knife have been committed in England this year. Hundreds, I would imagine. Probably considerably more than in 1888.

And how many women have been disembowelled on the street? None, as far as I know.

If three women were disembowelled within a matter of a few weeks and within a mile of where I live, would it not be a reasonable assumption that there was a bad man on the loose?

MrB

[Michael W Richards]

I wonder how many crimes involving a knife have been committed in England this year. Hundreds, I would imagine. Probably considerably more than in 1888.

And how many women have been disembowelled on the street? None, as far as I know.

If three women were disembowelled within a matter of a few weeks and within a mile of where I live, would it not be a reasonable assumption that there was a bad man on the loose?

MrB

Just because I single out the first 2 women as most probably by one killer doesn't mean that Ive excluded the possibility that the 4th Canonical victim was also by that same man or men. The disembowelling on the street facet of that murder is certainly in keeping with those first 2 victims, but there is a serious problem with the skill and knowledge displayed by the Mitre Square killer as compared with Annie Chapmans killer. There are also the additional fetaures in that murder that do not suggest a man working furiously fast to accomplish a planned task,.. like the severing of a section of colon and placing it between her arm and body, or the facial cuts. Or the cut and ripped cloth from Kates apron...surely if this is the man who took organs from Annie we would expect he would be prepared to do so again with Kate. Despite rigorous arguments about what the cloth was for, its just not acceptable to imagine if he just needed to wipe his hands that he would hold onto the cloth until the entrance to the Model Homes, and we also have the additional problem of when the cloth was actually dropped there...we have a constable who swore under oath that "it was not there" at around 2:20am.

Plus, before Annie there had been no reports of anyone disembowelling any street prostitutes. After Annie, and for the next 3 weeks, there was ample coverage of the murder and the way it was done, which then allows for someone to have read those reports and the replicated what he read to the best of his own ability.

You see...its not a matter of simply matching up unusual wounds to create a suspected series by one man, its looking at all that we can know about the victim, the murder, the environment, the circumstantial evidence and of course the physical evidence. Like the issue of whom among the Canonicals we can say were soliciting when they met their killer....in fact we can only say that with some certainty about Polly and Annie. We have witnesses that they spoke with and statements that confirm they were "working the streets" for their doss that night. We do not have that sort of confirmation from the horses mouth so to speak for the remaining 3 Canonicals.

Its worth noting that from the time Annie was killed to Marys murder that almost the entire reading world new of the atrocities that were being committed, thanks to some East End papers, with cut by cut coverage. Which means... that any murderous act that occurs after Annies murder that in some way mirrors or replicates things that were done to her, could have been the work of someone attempting to duplicate those acts.

The flaps of abdomen cut from Mary might well fall into that category, as might the removal of internal abdominal organs from Kate.

Cheers

[Hatchett]

Hi All,
I am inclining to your point of view, Michael.Statsitics are fine if they are dealing with a finite entity. I would argue that 1888 was an unusual year. In many ways it was the start of the 20th. Century. In 1887 there had been Bloody Sunday. In a few years time there would be the 1914 war where the soldiers on both sides initially refused to fight. There then followed the Russian Revolution. Industrial unrest and strikes increased during the war. And the powers that be feared a revolution in Britain. With all of that in mind I think the statistics are less than helpful

[Rosella]

The 1914-18 war was hardly 'a few years later', though. More like 26 years from 1888.
Also, although a series of bad harvests and unemployment did cause tensions in poorer districts, so did uncontrolled immigration into those districts by poverty stricken foreigners. Nevertheless, THE big issue consuming the British Press and Government/politics in the last 20 years of the 19th century was the Irish Question.

[MrBarnett]

[QUOTE=Hatchett;314356]Hi All,
I am inclining to your point of view, Michael.Statsitics are fine if they are dealing with a finite entity. I would argue that 1888 was an unusual year. In many ways it was the start of the 20th. Century. In 1887 there had been Bloody Sunday. In a few years time there would be the 1914 war where the soldiers on both sides initially refused to fight. There then followed the Russian Revolution. Industrial unrest and strikes increased during the war. And the powers that be feared a revolution in Britain. With all of that in mind I think the statistics are less than helpful[QUOTE]

Who initially refused to fight in WWI??

[Hatchett]

Hi,
The British and the germans.

[Hatchett]

In relative terms 26 years is a few years. The industrial unrest was nothing to do with harvests or immingration. It was to do with poor pay, and strikes for a living wage.

[John G]

Reliance on empirical evidence

Hello Michael,

I prefer to take a scientific approach to the 1888 series of murders, rather than one that relies on simple speculation and anecdotal evidence. For example. in respect of the argument that all the 1888 murders after Chapman were the work of copycat killers, this is surely pretty much untenable. I mean, as I've already pointed out copycat murderers largely exist in the realms of crime fiction. For those who disagree, where's the evidence of a copycat Yorkshire Ripper? Hammersmith Nude Murderer? Suffolk Strangler? Boston Strangler? Camden Ripper? Of course I could go on.

And what about MJK's murder? The ferocity of the killing, and the shear destruction inflicted on the body, is arguably unprecedented in British Criminological history, let alone within a tiny geographical area of London. For anyone to suggest that this was the work of some common Whitechapel knife attacker is, in my view, patently absurd.

Of course, I'm not denying that Whitechapel of the period couldn't be a dangerous place, or that violent crime was particularly rare, but in considering the empirical evidence, rather than resorting to supposition, speculation and guesswork, we find that Tabram and the C5 murders were incredibly rare.

As Bruce Paley points out, in 1887 of 80 recorded homicides in London not one took place in Whitechapel. And of 71 violent deaths recorded in the district, 69 were the result of accident, i.e burns, scalds, fractures and contusions. Neither was 1887 unusual: in 1886 there were 68 murders in London, but none in Whitechapel. And there was one Whitechapel murder in both 1889 and 1890, against respective totals of 79 and 74 for London as a whole: Paley,B, Jack the Ripper: The Simple Truth, 1995, ch 8. It's worth noting, therefore, that as many murders occurred in one 45 minute period in 1888 as within a 4 year period in Whitechapel, either side of 1888.

In fact, so unprecedented were these murders that nothing like it could be recalled by the locals in recent memory, except for perhaps the 1831 murder of a boy in front of St Paul's Cathedral; the murders were so grotesque in their ferocity they were even being compared to Poe's Murders in the Rue Morgue. (Ibid) So much for the argument that Whitechapel, or London of the period, was awash with throat cutting maniacs.

It is also clearly wrong to say that the murders were only linked by time or geography. Keppel et al, (2005), link the C5 murders plus Tabram, allowing for the fact that the killer was interrupted in the case of Stride, by a signature that exhibited 12 separate characteristics, i.e the victims' bodies being left open on display, picquerism (very rare in itself), overkill, posing of the bodies, and the quick incapacity of the victims.

Even Stride and Eddowes are linked by unusual characteristics. For example, they were both women who had their throats deeply cut with their bodies left open on display; and the crime scenes were well chosen: cloaked in almost total darkness in Stride's case, but with a clear escape route onto Berner Street, and a darkened part of Mitre Square, with three escape passages in respect of Eddowes. It is submitted that the Stride murder alone was highly unusual for the period: considering the degree of overkill; the body left displayed out in the open; strong evidence of an organized assault- the killer avoided getting covered in blood by cutting Stride's throat when she was near to the ground, and possibly strangling the victim to restrict the blood supply: see the testimony of Drs Philips and Blackwell; and the choice of crime scene- cloaked by pitch black darkness where the killer could operate unseen and which also afforded him a place for him to hide if he was interrupted. In fact, what is particularly remarkable about Stride's murder is that, despite the fact that Stride's throat was severely cut, there was hardly any blood on Stride or the surrounding area: hardly indicating the work of a novice or inexperienced killer.

Reference was made to the Emma Smith assault. I find it interesting that, despite the brutal nature of the assault, possibly by a gang, she remained alive and conscious for several days afterwards, unlike JTR's poor victims who were dispatched with ferocious efficiency.

And frankly, I fail to understand an approach to the linking of the murders that is so prescriptive that it completely fails to take into account of just how unpredictable serial killers can be.

I mean, in the case of Sutcliffe even his signature seemed to evolve over time. Consider, for instance, the terrible assault on Theresa Sykes,which differed in several important aspects to Sutcliffe's earlier attacks. Firstly, victimology. She was a 16 year old schoolgirl and therefore about as far removed from his earlier victims as it's possible to imagine. Secondly, the attack wasn't planned but was impulsive. Thirdly, unlike the isolated locations of Sutcliffe's earlier attacks, she was assaulted in a residential area outside her own home- suggesting a disorganized rather than organized attack- and witnessed by her boyfriend who came running out forcing Sutcliffe to flea.

Finally, if anyone is in any doubt just how rare the C5 murders plus Tabram were for the period try and give examples of murders either prior to 1888, or after 1888, either in Whitechapel or the wider London area, involving victims left in the street with their throats severely cut, or with evidence of overkill (Tabram), or involving abdominal mutilations.

Best wishes,

John