Is that MJK's leg bone in the crime scene photo?

[DJA]

That I didnt mention the items retrieved in a partially burned condition doesnt mean they were not included in my reference to the clothing in the room. They were almost certainly tossed on a dying fire to gain some short term light.

I believe that the pilot jacket wasnt described as being soiled or dirty, so perhaps they accomplished less than they projected for. Additionally I dont recall a reference saying the clothing was found unwashed...maybe damp.

Are you now purporting that damp clothing was tossed on a dying fire to gain some short term light?

[Michael W Richards]

Are you now purporting that damp clothing was tossed on a dying fire to gain some short term light?

No, a hat and some fabric was. As I said there was other clothing in the room besides the partially burnt items and neatly or otherwise folded clothing. Like the Pilot coat for example, which wasnt Marys.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure if you're saying the two events occurred at the same time, but for clarity; the PM was in the AM, the ashes were then searched in the PM. Significantly, the search was led by the medical men accompanied by the police, not the other way around.

Wrong Josh. The ashes were searched for a second time Saturday morning by Abberline and others. Same time as the pm.

[DJA]

No, a hat and some fabric was. As I said there was other clothing in the room besides the partially burnt items and neatly or otherwise folded clothing. Like the Pilot coat for example, which wasnt Marys.

Abberline at the Inquest .......
I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off. We have since gone through the ashes in the fireplace; there were remnants of clothing, a portion of a brim of a hat, and a skirt, and it appeared as if a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt.


Was under the impression the men's coat was hanging in front of a window.

[AlanG]

The placement of the left arm is interesting. The positioning of the legs to me shows deliberate (sexual) posing.

[The Rookie Detective]

The placement of the left arm is interesting. The positioning of the legs to me shows deliberate (sexual) posing.

The left arm for me represents my theory that MJK was pregnant and the placement of the legs more to do with childbirth than sex.

the right arm is also interesting, like holding a baby.

the liver placed like a fallen foetus from her body
the breast under the pillow
the pile of innards on the table shaped like a “bundle”

For me the body looks like she has just received an extremely violent abortion.

I don’t believe there was a sexual motive as the killer would have been repulsed by them. I also believe he was married and had children and wouldn’t have even been noticed.

he felt disgusted by his victims rather than aroused by them.

just an opinion obviously


TRD

[AlanG]

I also believe he was married and had children

just an opinion obviously


TRD

Agreed. Purely speculative of course but it wouldn't surprise me if first born was a Daughter.

[Michael W Richards]

Abberline at the Inquest .......
I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off. We have since gone through the ashes in the fireplace; there were remnants of clothing, a portion of a brim of a hat, and a skirt, and it appeared as if a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt.


Was under the impression the men's coat was hanging in front of a window.

The Pilot coat was hanging by the windows, blocking the view from the lower front window. The one that had a broken pane in it...used by Barnett to get into the room if they forgot their key, or since they lost it. The Large Fire Abberline estimated was from evidence that one had been recently in that fireplace, it doesnt mean it was large when the killer was in there. The partially burned remnants indicate that some items were put on the fire as it was dying down.

My suggestion that maybe Mary and Maria, in the room all that Thursday afternoon, might have boiled water for laundry is based on a few things, ...the tub being visible under the bed, the clothing that Maria obviously brought to that room, the fact the faucet is just outside, and that by doing laundry and boiling water all day the melted solder on the pot/kettle makes sense.

[DJA]

My suggestion that maybe Mary and Maria, in the room all that Thursday afternoon, might have boiled water for laundry is based on a few things, ...the tub being visible under the bed, the clothing that Maria obviously brought to that room, the fact the faucet is just outside, and that by doing laundry and boiling water all day the melted solder on the pot/kettle makes sense.

Well..... not really.



Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.


Anyone suspect that Mary Ann Kelly might not have been completely heterosexual,not that there's any problem with that these days.
She had worked at a GAY house.
Wasn't too happy with her part in France.
Barnett move out due to women sleeping over.

[Michael W Richards]

The left arm for me represents my theory that MJK was pregnant and the placement of the legs more to do with childbirth than sex.

the right arm is also interesting, like holding a baby.

the liver placed like a fallen foetus from her body
the breast under the pillow
the pile of innards on the table shaped like a “bundle”

For me the body looks like she has just received an extremely violent abortion.

I don’t believe there was a sexual motive as the killer would have been repulsed by them. I also believe he was married and had children and wouldn’t have even been noticed.

he felt disgusted by his victims rather than aroused by them.

just an opinion obviously


TRD

The placement of internal organs and her breasts are puzzling, but one thing stands out...the uterus was taken out...and left behind. The ONLY organ taken in 2 different Canonical mutilation murders, and I submit, the focus or objective of his mutilations on Annie, is left behind.

Her face is slashed, her arms show defense wounds, and she is essentially emptied of organs. One thigh is stripped of all flesh to the bone, the other inside thigh is stripped of flesh. This was not an assault without the evidence of a struggle, and it was not an assault with any discernible focus. In fact, almost everything thats done is incomplete. Her Right arm is almost dislocated and removed, her head is almost removed, he removed almost all of the flesh on 2 thighs..only 1 down to bone, ...this guy was lost, not someone who killed street walkers so he could mutilate their abdomens postmortem. That guy had objectives, the killer in Millers Court was ...in my estimation..punishing Mary.

[DJA]

The placement of internal organs and her breasts are puzzling, but one thing stands out...the uterus was taken out...and left behind. The ONLY organ taken in 2 different Canonical mutilation murders, and I submit, the focus or objective of his mutilations on Annie, is left behind.

That guy had objectives, the killer in Millers Court was ...in my estimation..punishing Mary.

The placement of internal organs and breasts seem to stem from some very poor reporting of Chapman's wound,etc.
Perhaps Jack was balancing the ledger,by performing what he had already been blamed for.

Three Canonicals had at least part of their uterus removed.
Chapman,Eddowes and Kelly.
Rough chance he was interrupted with Nichols.


British Medical Journal
September 22, 1888The Whitechapel Murder DR. GEORGE BAXTER PHILLIPS gave some remarkable evidence at the adjourned inquiry respecting the mutilations found on the body of Mary Anne Chapman, who was found in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, Whitechapel, on the morning of September 8th. He express the opinion that the length of the weapon, which must have been very sharp, was at least five or six inches, probably more. The mode in which the knife had been used, he said, seemed to indicate some anatomical knowledge. The reposts published in the daily press are incomplete. It is there desirable to state that the parts removed were a certain portion of the abdominal wall, including the navel; two thirds of the bladder (posterior and upper portions); the upper third of the vagina and its connection with the uterus; and the whole of the uterus.


I completely agree that Jack was punishing Mary Kelly.

The murders stopped after that,so .....

[Michael W Richards]

Answered some of that in your post...

Three Canonicals had at least part of their uterus removed.
Chapman,Eddowes and Kelly.
Rough chance he was interrupted with Nichols.

If you'll read my post, I said excised and taken. Kelly is not in that group. Completely agree that Mary Ann was likely meant to give that organ up when he attacked her.


[B]British Medical Journal
September 22, 1888The Whitechapel Murder DR. GEORGE BAXTER PHILLIPS gave some remarkable evidence at the adjourned inquiry respecting the mutilations found on the body of Mary Anne Chapman, who was found in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, Whitechapel, on the morning of September 8th. He express the opinion that the length of the weapon, which must have been very sharp, was at least five or six inches, probably more. The mode in which the knife had been used, he said, seemed to indicate some anatomical knowledge. The reposts published in the daily press are incomplete. It is there desirable to state that the parts removed were a certain portion of the abdominal wall, including the navel; two thirds of the bladder (posterior and upper portions); the upper third of the vagina and its connection with the uterus; and the whole of the uterus.[/B]

Phillips also said this referring to what was taken.... "The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body." So thats anaotomical knowledge.... Marys killer didnt reveal any specific knowledge, skill with a knife..Marys killer didnt reveal any particular skills that Bond saw, and a target in mind that the cutting was geared to, in order to achieve the objectives ..."no meaningless cuts". I dont have to ask you if there is any evidence that the cuts made on Mary were specifically to excise and retrieve her heart. Not unless he planned to take it out at her right kneecap, or through her pelvis.

Its obvious many cuts were meaningless in that regard.


I completely agree that Jack was punishing Mary Kelly.

Whatdayaknow...agreement in principle.

Cheers.

[DJA]

Just clarifying.

Might only be one other here that speaks Canadian

Cheers.

[The Rookie Detective]

The placement of internal organs and her breasts are puzzling, but one thing stands out...the uterus was taken out...and left behind. The ONLY organ taken in 2 different Canonical mutilation murders, and I submit, the focus or objective of his mutilations on Annie, is left behind.

Her face is slashed, her arms show defense wounds, and she is essentially emptied of organs. One thigh is stripped of all flesh to the bone, the other inside thigh is stripped of flesh. This was not an assault without the evidence of a struggle, and it was not an assault with any discernible focus. In fact, almost everything thats done is incomplete. Her Right arm is almost dislocated and removed, her head is almost removed, he removed almost all of the flesh on 2 thighs..only 1 down to bone, ...this guy was lost, not someone who killed street walkers so he could mutilate their abdomens postmortem. That guy had objectives, the killer in Millers Court was ...in my estimation..punishing Mary.

One of the best statements i have read and i couldn't agree more with you.

He was absolutely punishing her and lost and had clear intentions.

As you say, the Uterus is attacked for more than one victim and there's his true motivation right there.

He was disgusted by the way Prostitutes gave themselves away and had no respect for themselves or their own bodies.

The Uterus being the symbol of childbearing and so when you combine the the idea of a prostitute having no care for the way men treated their bodies with the idea of a woman bearing children, its almost as though the killer is punishing his victims because they have no respect or care for what they have, the ability to bear children.

This is compounded by the fact that Mary was much younger than his previous victims, which may explain why she was punished more than anyone else.

From a psychological perspective, the kind of man who would butcher a prostitute and target the childbearing organ, would likely to have witnessed personal loss during childhood or as a young man. A female figure in his life who lost a child, or died in child birth etc...

I don't believe he was angry at prostitutes because he had contracted an STI, but rather that he was punishing their apparent disregard for their own bodies and therefore having little or no respect for ability to grow a new life.



As an aside,

Lechmere lost his eldest son within days of his wife giving birth to a daughter. He never knew his dad. He also lost his only sibling, his sister, to TB when she was 19 and he was around 16.

Hutchinson lost his mum in childhood and spent his entire childhood moving around London. He was a loner and didn't marry until later life.

Just a couple of tiny details which may bear no relevance at all.


Michael i often concur with most of your posts and feel you're on the right track


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

The placement of internal organs and breasts seem to stem from some very poor reporting of Chapman's wound,etc.

Three Canonicals had at least part of their uterus removed.
Chapman,Eddowes and Kelly.
Rough chance he was interrupted with Nichols.

The murders stopped after that,so .....

Well 3 of 5 confirmed attacking of Uterus

Nichols killer was either disturbed by the approaching Lechmere OR was the killer

Strides killer was also either disturbed or she wasn't a Ripper victim.



The Uterus is the one organ which i feel is his main motivation.

Some of the superficial cuts and slices are to try and distract from his true intentions.



TRD