Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[The Rookie Detective]

[*]The large tin can full of water and spilt out everywhere and SUICIDE written on the note. I have been meaning to look through the papers but I did wonder if this was some reference to a previous murder by the author that was put down as suicide, perhaps by drowning. The canal is mentioned in the letter.
.

I have just realized what the message meant...and it's brilliant; dark, but brilliant.

The killer didn't leave this message in relation to a murder...

He was mocking Druitt...

The thing is... Druitt went into the water about a month before he was found floating in the Thames on New Years Eve 1888, ergo, he committed "Suicide" in early December.

John Gill was murdered just a few days BEFORE Druitt was found.

And so...

The killer must have known that Druitt was already in the water.

Was Druitt murdered by the ripper in London and then traveled to Yorkshire in early December to kill Gill?

The note referring to SUICIDE and seemingly coming from the ripper himself, could be referring to Druitt who was already dead when he wrote the note.

The other option is that Druitt faked his own death and the man found floating in the Thames wasn't Druitt...leaving him free to leave London and travel to Yorkshire.


I mean, it's a hypothesis at best, but why not?

We need Herlock's thoughts on this one please?


RD

[Aethelwulf]

Horrific case indeed.

Even though Barrett seemed suspicious, it's extremely likely that the real killer was Walter Lewis Turner, who was sentenced to death in 1891 for slaying the little girl Whitehouse.

At the time Gill was murdered, Walter lived in the same proximity and then moved away with his wife shortly after Gill was killed.

He then went on to kill the little girl and subsequently was sentenced to death.

He had indeed tried to kill his wife. As she slept he tried to cut her throat. He just missed her windpipe, missed any major vessels, but the cut was deep enough to have nearly killed her at the time.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of him ever having been to London or Whitechapel and so it's extremely unlikely that he was JTR.

Walter was about 31 yeas old when he was hanged.

He had at least 2 older sisters, one of whom was "deaf and dumb" - He was the youngest child and the only boy I believe.


What i would say is that he clearly took motivation from the JTR murder of MJK.

But being a child killer; he was worse because he targeted a little girl (and a boy in Gill) and inflicted far worse relative to the ripper IMO.


What's frustrating is that there WAS an attempt to connect the 2 murders; one of the police forces tried to communicate with the other (not sure which way around) but no link was ever undertaken for whatever reason.

I would say that the distinct lack of communication in linking the 2 child murders, is strikingly familiar and typical of the reputation of Yorkshire police as a whole. We all know another more recent failing of a certain serial killer that was allowed to go on killing due to the incompetence of Yorkshire Police and so history at least tells us that sometimes a lack of communication can help a killer go on longer than they should really have been allowed to.

It therefore means that John Gill's murder remains officially unsolved...despite a guy (Walter Lewis Turner) who subsequently mutilated and murdered a little girl and tried to kill his wife, who lived a few doors away at the time of Gill's murder NOT being officially linked with his murder.

In terms of Walter having been the ripper, it's very unlikely indeed.


But the Gill case does show that there CAN be similar murders with similar injuries inflicted on victims, that aren't connected with JTR, but have been inspired, mimicked or influenced by the real JTR.

Perhaps Bury falls into this particular bracket?


there is one other interesting detail about Walter Turner...he was born in Nottingham.

wasn't there a ripper letter in which the author states they are a native of Nottingham?


I may be completely wrong but Nottingham is familiar somehow.


RD

Three things still intrigue me about this:

1. The timing and weirdness of the ripper hoax letter, seemingly prior to the discovery of the body
2. The sighting of man on the Friday in Manningham who was twice hauled in for the Whitechapel crimes
3. The large tin can full of water and spilt out everywhere and SUICIDE written on the note. I have been meaning to look through the papers but I did wonder if this was some reference to a previous murder by the author that was put down as suicide, perhaps by drowning. The canal is mentioned in the letter.

I would also like to know just how simialr the Turner case was. Gill had some odd features - heart taken out had shoved under his chin. Boots shoved in abdomen. If anyone knows, were they really as similar? As you say, inspiration must have come from Kelly's murder (if it wasn't an original of course and that sighting was legit and it was in fact the ripper).

If it was a ripper crime, which must be a long shot, I only know of one suspect that went missing shortly after xmas 88, who had spent some time living rough on the streets of west yorkshire very close to Bradford and who slept rough in stables. I don't know the source of the claim but I have seen it written that he carried on some sort of horse slaughtering work in Dewsbury as well.

[The Rookie Detective]

Horrific case indeed.

Even though Barrett seemed suspicious, it's extremely likely that the real killer was Walter Lewis Turner, who was sentenced to death in 1891 for slaying the little girl Whitehouse.

At the time Gill was murdered, Walter lived in the same proximity and then moved away with his wife shortly after Gill was killed.

He then went on to kill the little girl and subsequently was sentenced to death.

He had indeed tried to kill his wife. As she slept he tried to cut her throat. He just missed her windpipe, missed any major vessels, but the cut was deep enough to have nearly killed her at the time.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of him ever having been to London or Whitechapel and so it's extremely unlikely that he was JTR.

Walter was about 31 yeas old when he was hanged.

He had at least 2 older sisters, one of whom was "deaf and dumb" - He was the youngest child and the only boy I believe.


What i would say is that he clearly took motivation from the JTR murder of MJK.

But being a child killer; he was worse because he targeted a little girl (and a boy in Gill) and inflicted far worse relative to the ripper IMO.


What's frustrating is that there WAS an attempt to connect the 2 murders; one of the police forces tried to communicate with the other (not sure which way around) but no link was ever undertaken for whatever reason.

I would say that the distinct lack of communication in linking the 2 child murders, is strikingly familiar and typical of the reputation of Yorkshire police as a whole. We all know another more recent failing of a certain serial killer that was allowed to go on killing due to the incompetence of Yorkshire Police and so history at least tells us that sometimes a lack of communication can help a killer go on longer than they should really have been allowed to.

It therefore means that John Gill's murder remains officially unsolved...despite a guy (Walter Lewis Turner) who subsequently mutilated and murdered a little girl and tried to kill his wife, who lived a few doors away at the time of Gill's murder NOT being officially linked with his murder.

In terms of Walter having been the ripper, it's very unlikely indeed.


But the Gill case does show that there CAN be similar murders with similar injuries inflicted on victims, that aren't connected with JTR, but have been inspired, mimicked or influenced by the real JTR.

Perhaps Bury falls into this particular bracket?


there is one other interesting detail about Walter Turner...he was born in Nottingham.

wasn't there a ripper letter in which the author states they are a native of Nottingham?


I may be completely wrong but Nottingham is familiar somehow.


RD

[Aethelwulf]

I lean towards some other nutter Aethelwulf.

Probs right John. Still there are enough odd things about it that make me think it is possible. Likewise the Havant murder

[John Wheat]

As you said, the timing is weird and would be a huge coincidence. These 'friends' pull a jack the ripper prank before the murder of John Gill, and then Gill truns up with nose and ears cut off, heart removed and shoved under his chin and boots shoved in his cut open abdomen. Surely that would make the 'freinds' the most likely murderers. I kind of think whoever broke in and wrote the message killed Gill, but was he the ripper or some other nutter?

I lean towards some other nutter Aethelwulf.

[Aethelwulf]

Interesting thought, Wulf.

It feels terribly dark for a standard prank.

As you said, the timing is weird and would be a huge coincidence. These 'friends' pull a jack the ripper prank before the murder of John Gill, and then Gill truns up with nose and ears cut off, heart removed and shoved under his chin and boots shoved in his cut open abdomen. Surely that would make the 'freinds' the most likely murderers. I kind of think whoever broke in and wrote the message killed Gill, but was he the ripper or some other nutter?

[Ms Diddles]

Ok I see. Like you say, some prank. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest. Also it would only be a small number of people who could have done it i suspect. I'm intrigued by the large can of water and SUICIDE. I wonder if trawling the newspaper archives would turn up a drowning 'suicide' that was actaully murder, by the the intruder.

Interesting thought, Wulf.

It feels terribly dark for a standard prank.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wulf,

I think the police viewed this incident as a prank played on the couple by family or friends who knew they were away for the night, rather than perpetrated by the couple themselves.

Some prank!

I believe the Cahill's were terrified and Mrs Cahill refused to ever return to the house.

A grudge is a possibility though, but I agree the timing is weird.

Like you say, unlikely but an outside chance.

Ok I see. Like you say, some prank. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest. Also it would only be a small number of people who could have done it i suspect. I'm intrigued by the large can of water and SUICIDE. I wonder if trawling the newspaper archives would turn up a drowning 'suicide' that was actaully murder, by the the intruder.

[Ms Diddles]

hi both, I dunno I find this hard to believe as a prank that the couple organised. Why do something so elaborate then report it and bring the police down on you who would most likely see it for a hoax and throw the book at you? If it was a prank i think it was someone with grudge against this pair, but then an actual ripper like murder takes place? Unlikely IMO. I still think there is an outside chance this could have been the ripper, but how and why .....

Hi Wulf,

I think the police viewed this incident as a prank played on the couple by family or friends who knew they were away for the night, rather than perpetrated by the couple themselves.

Some prank!

I believe the Cahill's were terrified and Mrs Cahill refused to ever return to the house.

A grudge is a possibility though, but I agree the timing is weird.

Like you say, unlikely but an outside chance.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Ms Diddles

Chalk this up to coincidence then. It does sound very unlikely.

hi both, I dunno I find this hard to believe as a prank that the couple organised. Why do something so elaborate then report it and bring the police down on you who would most likely see it for a hoax and throw the book at you? If it was a prank i think it was someone with grudge against this pair, but then an actual ripper like murder takes place? Unlikely IMO. I still think there is an outside chance this could have been the ripper, but how and why .....

[etenguy]

Hi Eten / Wulf,

The recent discussions on here encouraged me to re-read the book I mentioned previously.

It seems that the police at the time dismissed this story as a family prank, although on what grounds I have no idea.

It is one of the oddities thrown up by the Ripper story for sure!

Hi Ms Diddles

Chalk this up to coincidence then. It does sound very unlikely.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

Hi Eten / Wulf,

The recent discussions on here encouraged me to re-read the book I mentioned previously.

It seems that the police at the time dismissed this story as a family prank, although on what grounds I have no idea.

It is one of the oddities thrown up by the Ripper story for sure!

[Aethelwulf]

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

Yes it is strange. It implies a ripper at home in the east end and west Yorkshire. The boy doesn't appear to have been murdered in the stable so the killer would need use of some other place and get his hands on transport if the other place was at a distance. Possibly carried otherwise, perhaps the reason for the wrapping.

[etenguy]

Here is that strange story about the Bradford ripper letter. It's is certainly odd and doesn't sound like a publicity seeking stunt to me. Then there was the sighting in Bradford of a man who had twice been up for the whitechapel murders. Defo the strangest murder of 1888 - heart taken out and shoved under the chin, boots shoved in in the abdomen.

“A remarkable story came to the knowledge of the Bradford police some time on Thursday, on the morning of which the boy John Gill was first missed, and regarding which they have kept the strictest silence.

On Wednesday night last, a tailor named Cahill, of 324, Heaton-road – a thoroughfare in the suburb where the body was found, but about half a mile further from town and in a very isolated position – went to a ball with his wife.

Upon his return about 10 o’clock Thursday morning, an hour and a half after the boy was last seen with the milkman Barrett, he found that their home had been entered.

The furniture had been pulled about and turned upside down; a number of articles of various kinds had been thrown in a heap upon the table in the living room; and upon another table was a sight which struck him with horror.

A couple of carving knives were placed crosswise upon the table, and upon them was a card, on one side of which was written:- “Half-past 9 – look out – Jack the Ripper has been,” whilst on the other side were the words:- “I have removed down to the canal side. Please drop in. Yours truly, SUICIDE.”

There was a large tin can full of water on the same table, and the whole surface of the table was saturated with water.

The clock in the living room was stopped, and the fingers indicated the time stated on the card, half-past nine.

Nothing had been removed from the house, except a bottle of rum.

Another bottle of rum had been removed from the cupboard, and some of its contents bad been poured into two glasses, which were left upon the table almost empty.

Hi AethelWulf

This is most strange - it would seem the incident occurred before the fate of the boy was known - so was yet another coincidence or there was something going on in Bradford related to the Ripper.

[Aethelwulf]

Here is that strange story about the Bradford ripper letter. It's is certainly odd and doesn't sound like a publicity seeking stunt to me. Then there was the sighting in Bradford of a man who had twice been up for the whitechapel murders. Defo the strangest murder of 1888 - heart taken out and shoved under the chin, boots shoved in in the abdomen.

“A remarkable story came to the knowledge of the Bradford police some time on Thursday, on the morning of which the boy John Gill was first missed, and regarding which they have kept the strictest silence.

On Wednesday night last, a tailor named Cahill, of 324, Heaton-road – a thoroughfare in the suburb where the body was found, but about half a mile further from town and in a very isolated position – went to a ball with his wife.

Upon his return about 10 o’clock Thursday morning, an hour and a half after the boy was last seen with the milkman Barrett, he found that their home had been entered.

The furniture had been pulled about and turned upside down; a number of articles of various kinds had been thrown in a heap upon the table in the living room; and upon another table was a sight which struck him with horror.

A couple of carving knives were placed crosswise upon the table, and upon them was a card, on one side of which was written:- “Half-past 9 – look out – Jack the Ripper has been,” whilst on the other side were the words:- “I have removed down to the canal side. Please drop in. Yours truly, SUICIDE.”

There was a large tin can full of water on the same table, and the whole surface of the table was saturated with water.

The clock in the living room was stopped, and the fingers indicated the time stated on the card, half-past nine.

Nothing had been removed from the house, except a bottle of rum.

Another bottle of rum had been removed from the cupboard, and some of its contents bad been poured into two glasses, which were left upon the table almost empty.