Was Johnny Gill a Ripper Victim

[etenguy]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

[Errata]

Someone named Kathryn McMaster wrote a book on the subject. I have not read it, it was merely the product of a Google search. It would not be super unusual for a serial killer, even a sexually motivated one to kill a child. Usually they begin with one, because they are incredibly easy to control, but not exclusively. Given the mutilations that were performed on this poor kid, I would say the notion that they were performed by "drunken lads" is incorrect. It would have taken almost the entire night to do that to boy, and drunkenness wears off. Also there is something of a truism that the face being hacked up would point to someone who knew the child, but serial killers and mutilators know people, so it might speak to a suspect pool. Without seeing the autopsy report I couldn't possibly guess if it was the ripper. This mutilation is... a lot. Like, Mary Kelly a lot, but with even more freedom and time. This might be what an escalation from Eddowes would look like, it also might be what an escalation of the Torso Killer would look like. If the kid was alive for any of this, (and I don't know either way) It's not the Ripper.

[etenguy]

Someone named Kathryn McMaster wrote a book on the subject. I have not read it, it was merely the product of a Google search. It would not be super unusual for a serial killer, even a sexually motivated one to kill a child. Usually they begin with one, because they are incredibly easy to control, but not exclusively. Given the mutilations that were performed on this poor kid, I would say the notion that they were performed by "drunken lads" is incorrect. It would have taken almost the entire night to do that to boy, and drunkenness wears off. Also there is something of a truism that the face being hacked up would point to someone who knew the child, but serial killers and mutilators know people, so it might speak to a suspect pool. Without seeing the autopsy report I couldn't possibly guess if it was the ripper. This mutilation is... a lot. Like, Mary Kelly a lot, but with even more freedom and time. This might be what an escalation from Eddowes would look like, it also might be what an escalation of the Torso Killer would look like. If the kid was alive for any of this, (and I don't know either way) It's not the Ripper.

Thanks Errata

For those that were wondering, the data pattern I saw is below (and its so simple I'm sure others have noticed it before):

The murders of the canonical five were all at weekends but followed the pattern
Friday, Saturday, Sunday (double event), Friday

In addition the time between each murder was
1 week, 3 weeks (double event), 5 weeks then followed by the next day in the above day sequence.

So I looked at 7 weeks and the next day in the sequence and that was the date Johnny Gill's body was found (I can't yet find an actual time of death).

May all be coincidence, but an unusual one that this double sequence should hold across the canon.

[Errata]

Thanks Errata

For those that were wondering, the data pattern I saw is below (and its so simple I'm sure others have noticed it before):

The murders of the canonical five were all at weekends but followed the pattern
Friday, Saturday, Sunday (double event), Friday

In addition the time between each murder was
1 week, 3 weeks (double event), 5 weeks then followed by the next day in the above day sequence.

So I looked at 7 weeks and the next day in the sequence and that was the date Johnny Gill's body was found (I can't yet find an actual time of death).

May all be coincidence, but an unusual one that this double sequence should hold across the canon.

He was taken the day before he was found. He was sledding maybe? But with a bunch of kids and didn’t come home. He was found in an outhouse the next morning, perhaps by a milkman. There are a couple of articles on it in the articles section, but no time of death, you are correct. If someone went to the trouble of writing a book about this particular boy, I would lay odds that they made a priority of getting that autopsy report. So it might be in the book.

[Abby Normal]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

its possible but i dont think so. different victimology, location and there is a credible suspect in the milkman barret.

[Errata]

its possible but i dont think so. different victimology, location and there is a credible suspect in the milkman barret.

One of the articles mentioned another boy being mutilated that weekend? Do we think that’s true, or a reporting error generated by two statements on the Gill murder?

[Abby Normal]

One of the articles mentioned another boy being mutilated that weekend? Do we think that’s true, or a reporting error generated by two statements on the Gill murder?

i think thats one s a mistake.

one of the main reasons i dont think its a ripper crime is that i think theres a good chance the milkman barret did it. he was tje last one to see him alive and on the morning of his disapearance he said johnny left him during there usual milk run becuase he said he wanted to go home to eat breakfast. this never happened before- whenever johnny rode with barret on his runs when finished johnny would always eat breakfast with barret. plus where barret said johnny jumped off his cart to head home was only couple hundred yards away from his home. baret didnt really have a solid alibi either. i also find it strange that this married man spent so much time with this boy, riding with him, eating breakfast all the time etc.
i smell a rat.

the parents thought he did it. the police thought he did it. i think morelikely than not baret did it too.

[jerryd]

Has anyone researched whether Johnny Gill, an 8 year old boy living in Bradford in 1888, was a victim of Jack the Ripper? I would be interested to find out more about his death since he fits a pattern for ripper victims regarding the dates of the murders.

The data pattern may be no more than coincidence, but extrapolating from it I searched for a ripper like murder around 28th December 1888 and found the reference to Johnny Gill. He was horribly mutilated in a manner not unlike the ripper victims, Kelly particularly. Dr Phillips was called in to examine the body, such were the suspicions at the time, though it was his opinion that young master Gill was not a ripper victim.

I am having difficulty finding much information on the net. I understand Patricia Cornwall refers to this murder in her ripper book (which I have not read). I could start there and with a fictionalised novel on amazon, but if any one knows of a decent researcher who has already considered this question, that might be a better place to begin.

I don't think he was a ripper victim but he was the victim of a post-mortem mutilator. I personally believe his murder was connected to the one in 1891 of the child, Barbara Waterhouse, who was murdered and mutilated in Horsforth, Leeds. Not far from Bradford. Walter Lewis Turner, the guilty man in Barbara's case, was living in Shipley in 1888 which was minutes up the road from Johnny Gill's house. I did a lot of research into this case a few years ago. It's somewhere on one of these boards. I think Turner could be the culprit in the Johnny Gill case. The police at the time thought he could be as well. He had hung by then, though.

[drstrange169]

Bruce Robinson spends quite a few pages connecting Jonnie and jtr, Micheal Maybrick and the Masons, in his book, "They All Love Jack".

[etenguy]

its possible but i dont think so. different victimology, location and there is a credible suspect in the milkman barret.

Thanks Abby

Absolutely a different victimology, and location. I don't know enough about the case to know if Barrett is a likely offender. The Courts didn't think so and I believe there is another suspect, Turner, who was convicted for murdering a young girl, Barbara Waterhouse.

It may be a wild goose chase, but I am struck that it fits in exactly with the pattern of killings of the canonical five in terms of distance in time from Kelly's murder. That the pattern holds for the canonical five is surprising enough, but that the pattern can then extrapolate to another potential ripper like murder does lead me to think it is worth exploring.

[Losmandris]

I would very much doubt it.

[Harry D]

Doubtful that the Whitechapel killer went all the way up to Bradford and changed his victimology. It's possible that the murderer had been 'inspired' by the gruesome goings on down south.

@jerryd makes an interesting point re: Barbara Waterhouse's murder. Did police ever try to link the two?

[jerryd]

Doubtful that the Whitechapel killer went all the way up to Bradford and changed his victimology. It's possible that the murderer had been 'inspired' by the gruesome goings on down south.

@jerryd makes an interesting point re: Barbara Waterhouse's murder. Did police ever try to link the two?

Hi HarryD,

Rob clack posted an article titled "A Leeds Horror" a few years ago. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....hn+gill&page=8 [post #80].

This is a quote from that article.

"Turner was strongly suspected of the murder of the little boy Gill, who was found barbarously done to death at Manningham, near Bradford, at Christmas-time, in 1889. It was ascertained that he lived in Manningham Lane at the time of this outrage; but nothing else was ever advanced to connect him with the earlier crime."

I might also add that Turner tried to kill his wife by slitting her throat in August of 1889.

[Abby Normal]

Hi HarryD,

Rob clack posted an article titled "A Leeds Horror" a few years ago. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....hn+gill&page=8 [post #80].

This is a quote from that article.

"Turner was strongly suspected of the murder of the little boy Gill, who was found barbarously done to death at Manningham, near Bradford, at Christmas-time, in 1889. It was ascertained that he lived in Manningham Lane at the time of this outrage; but nothing else was ever advanced to connect him with the earlier crime."

I might also add that Turner tried to kill his wife by slitting her throat in August of 1889.

thanks Jer!
this guy looks good too. was there anything established he was in Bradford at the time. also I believe johnnys remains were found in a stable in town correct? wouldn't this local knowledge of the dumping place point more to someone who lived in town?

[jerryd]

thanks Jer!
this guy looks good too. was there anything established he was in Bradford at the time. also I believe johnnys remains were found in a stable in town correct? wouldn't this local knowledge of the dumping place point more to someone who lived in town?

Hi Abby,

John Gill lived off Manningham Lane. If the author of Rob's article is correct, Turner was living there at the time of the Gill murder in 1888. The stable was close to the Gill house.