Did Jack only kill 3?

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Jon. I know what you mean. And I think such a line will be abandoned once we find a scrap of evidence confirming even a small portion of Barnett's story.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I could understand this line of enquiry if some connection had been established between Mary Kelly and the Fenian's, but to take the murder as the motivation for a suggestion of a possible connection is rather like the cart pushing the horse.

Bewildered...

Jon S.

[lynn cates]

from on high

Hello Dave.

"The possibilities I'm keeping an open mind to (and they're no more than that in my mind) are that MJK was somehow important to SB, had been traced by the Fenians, and was once again moved on...the body in No 13 being that of an unwitting donor and mutilated to disguise the identity threat..."

Of course, such a donor must surely be, say, an orphan; else what should one do when she shows up on a missing person's list?

"Or alternatively that she'd been possibly blown, and someone on high decided she WASN'T that important after all, and decided to tidy her away...eradicating her so as to remove all trace of her previous identity change...to disguise the technique/tactic in some fashion."

Now this DOES sound like "Danger Man." Try episode, "Yesterday's Enemies." (Assuming, of course, you have McGoohan's DVD's.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

political and personal

Hello Sally.

"If 'MJK' was settled by Special Branch (or similar) then discovered and 'removed' what would be the purpose of this total annihilation?"

Well, anger at betrayal might be one such motive. And obviously the perpetrator would not be of sound mind.

"One supposes to remove all trace of the 'real' woman's identity?"

Doesn't seem to fit. If this is the motive, then the pre-scenario must be faulty.

"But for whom?"

Yes. So again, this angle of approach seems to miss the mark.

"Who would have recognised her as her real self had she not been virtually dismantled?"

Perhaps the RIC? two of their chaps showed up and thought they knew what had happened.

"Those official chaps who had resettled her would have known who she was in any case - so a bit pointless from their perspective."

Absolutely.

"And who else counted? Any co-conspirators would also have known who she was presumably - so a bit pointless from their perspective as well. And she was, in any case, recognisable enough for those who did know her as Kelly to identify her (e.g. Barnett)."

Agreed. I don't see any future in the recognisibility angle.

"Hypothetically, I can accept that an incognito spy who was outed might be in trouble . . ."

Splendid. Red Jim was shot at when he was discovered.

" . . . and might be done 'removed'."

Yes. Dr. Cronin was "removed" and he was NOT a spy--only suspected of being one. Also, Pat Sheridan in Colorado was under "removal' threat for the same reason. He was "discovered."

"I mean, I've seen James Bond too, I know how it works "

You might try "Danger Man." Much more believable, if stuffy.

" . . . but why try to disguise her identity? That doesn't make sense to me really - what would the killer have to gain by that?"

Agreed. See above.

"I think it's at least just as likely that the murder was driven by motives which were not political - although that doesn't mean it wasn't personal, of course."

It is possible. But try to imagine BOTH political AND personal. Such could be the ultimate in vindictiveness.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Sally

The possibilities I'm keeping an open mind to (and they're no more than that in my mind) are that MJK was somehow important to SB, had been traced by the Fenians, and was once again moved on...the body in No 13 being that of an unwitting donor and mutilated to disguise the identity threat...

Or alternatively that she'd been possibly blown, and someone on high decided she WASN'T that important after all, and decided to tidy her away...eradicating her so as to remove all trace of her previous identity change...to disguise the technique/tactic in some fashion. Convoluted and overall perhaps an unlikely premise, but it's one I'm not going to close my mind to just yet!

Mind you, either way, how you then account for the morning sightings is an interesting matter...but isn't it anyway?

All the best

Dave

[Sally]

Quite literally total annihilation...no trace left...no clues...just like now...

If 'MJK' was settled by Special Branch (or similar) then discovered and 'removed' what would be the purpose of this total annihilation? One supposes to remove all trace of the 'real' woman's identity?

But for whom? Who would have recognised her as her real self had she not been virtually dismantled? Those official chaps who had resettled her would have known who she was in any case - so a bit pointless from their perspective. And who else counted? Any co-conspirators would also have known who she was presumably - so a bit pointless from their perspective as well. And she was, in any case, recognisable enough for those who did know her as Kelly to identify her (e.g. Barnett).

Hypothetically, I can accept that an incognito spy who was outed might be in trouble; and might be done 'removed' - I mean, I've seen James Bond too, I know how it works - but why try to disguise her identity? That doesn't make sense to me really - what would the killer have to gain by that?

I think it's at least just as likely that the murder was driven by motives which were not political - although that doesn't mean it wasn't personal, of course.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

Quite literally total annihilation...no trace left...no clues...just like now...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Jeanne is the French form of Jane, as in St Jeanne-Francoise Fremiot. The simplified Latinised version of Jane is Jeanette, and Marie is, obviously, a no-brainer. I think we are in danger of romanticising the addled fantasies of a drunk and destitute prostitute in accepting she was a French actress with strong views on Irish independence.

No romanticising at all I'm afraid...just the rejection of "Marie Jeanette" as a Roman Catholic Latinised baptismal name, which it simply isn't...sorry

Dave

[curious]

Hi Velma

And I'm positing generally as Lynn does, but leaving the exit less explicit...ie Lynn's solution works, but equally she could have been seen as a loose end needing to be tidied up by Special Branch and...

Since I'm venturing into conspiracy territory, I'll go no further than say it's it is, at least, possible...

From this distance, who knows?

All the best

Dave

Hi, Lynn and Dave,
Thanks, Lynn, we've discussed this in the past and I guess since you see her killer as someone who felt betrayed that might account for the very, very, very excessive mutilation.

Maybe.

But Dave, in your instance, how does it account for all that mutilation?

Thx, guys,

[DrHopper]

Hi Doc H



Pure surmise I'm afraid...and Marie Jeanette is French rather than Latin...Maria Joanna or Maria Johanna is what I'd expect to see were this the case...

Sorry!

Dave

Really?
Jeanne is the French form of Jane, as in St Jeanne-Francoise Fremiot. The simplified Latinised version of Jane is Jeanette, and Marie is, obviously, a no-brainer. I think we are in danger of romanticising the addled fantasies of a drunk and destitute prostitute in accepting she was a French actress with strong views on Irish independence.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

And I'm positing generally as Lynn does, but leaving the exit less explicit...ie Lynn's solution works, but equally she could have been seen as a loose end needing to be tidied up by Special Branch and...

Since I'm venturing into conspiracy territory, I'll go no further than say it's it is, at least, possible...

From this distance, who knows?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

resettled

Hello Velma. Thanks. My thinking about "MJK" (self conscious quotes) is that she was "resettled" by Special Branch (or similar). This was QUITE common at this time. (Don't know her real name.)

At any rate, she was discovered and "removed"--possibly by one who felt betrayed by her at two levels, patriotic and personal.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Mike. Thanks. No, I am not even proposing a "switch" theory at all, for the reason that, if it had happened, being spotted by Mrs. Maxwell et al would surely have spoiled it.

Cheers.
LC

OK, I think you are proposing that the woman known as MJK was the body found in Miller's Court?

So, why the severe mutilation?

or exactly how do you envision things playing out?

Thx,

[lynn cates]

plot

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"Unless the body really wasn't killed until the morning -- say it was being worked on during the time she was out and about."

But surely, if there were a substitution plot, Mary would have been in on it? And so it would behoove her to lie low and get out of Spitalfields.

"The exact time of death for the body in Miller's Court has always been controversial."

Agreed.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

But contemplate the IRA atrocities of the 70s and 80s - were these in reality no better/worse, or less/more likely? The "Irish Question" has, over the years, raised passions you really wouldn't believe...the erasure of MJK as an identifiable person, coupled with the absence of identifiable personal history, has always puzzled...and this may well be a possible reason...

All the best

Dave

Well, this scenario does seem to explain some things that appear unexplainable.

And I do recognize that atrocities did and do take place every day.

I just prefer not to invite them into my head.