Did Jack only kill 3?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I say the bottom because there is no evidence that her killer was interrupted and there is no evidence that the privacy afforded him in the passageway was insufficient. Take the backyard of Hanbury at nearly dawn as proof of that.

Best regards all,

Mike R

Not comparable.

There were people coming and going, standing at doors, walking past with black bags, sat singing in a club etc at Berner Street.

At Hanbury Street, no witness came forward to say they'd entered that back yard except Richardson.

[Michael W Richards]

Anyone who claims that the killer of Polly and Annie wasnt preoccupied with the mutilations that occurred immediately after the death strokes would be incorrect.

Anyone who claims a man who kills so he can mutilate does so only sometime, hasnt been doing enough reading and is missing the point.

Dutfields Yard had a few quiet deserted spots, moreso than the passageway to it, and the man who killed Kate did all he did to her in 5 or 6 minutes. If the same man came from Berner Street, then the time needed and privacy was there for him. But a serial killer who kills to mutilate wasnt.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Fleetwood Mac]

Anyone who claims that the killer of Polly and Annie wasnt preoccupied with the mutilations that occurred immediately after the death strokes would be incorrect.

Anyone who claims a man who kills so he can mutilate does so only sometime, hasnt been doing enough reading and is missing the point.

Dutfields Yard had a few quiet deserted spots, moreso than the passageway to it, and the man who killed Kate did all he did to her in 5 or 6 minutes. If the same man came from Berner Street, then the time needed and privacy was there for him. But a serial killer who kills to mutilate wasnt.

Best regards,

Mike R

The time and privacy was only there for Jack providing no one came along to spoil it - a factor that he had no control over.

As far as he knew, no one was going to walk past in those 5/6 minutes - agreed in that it's not a great deal of time.

Perhaps he got lucky at Mitre Square and not so lucky at Berner Street.

Regardless, is it a coincidence that the scene of the crime where he was most likely to be disturbed, i.e. Berner Street, is the scene where he appears to have been disturbed. Or is it cause and effect reasoning?

[Ally]

Thanks again Ally. Good parallel with Bundy and Jack. Why take that risk of possibly getting stuck inside?

You may as well ask, why take the risk of murdering women and getting caught, period. You cannot fathom why someone would risk such a thing except for the basic premise: in the moment, that was what their compulsion required them to do.

[Bridewell]

We Believe

Sorry Phil,

How do we know the 'Jack the Ripper' epitaph was a newsmans invention? Have I missed this conclusive fact?
Monty

Hi, Monty,
You beat me to it!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Ally]

On this minor detail Ally I must disagree, a girl spotted Bundy leaving the building in a cap and carrying a large stick. She identified him in court.

I stand with your basic idea completely...


Greg

You are right. I was mostly speaking about no one hearing or witnessing him in the next room striking the women with the bat but you are absolutely correct that he was witnessed leaving by the girl (I forget her name) arriving home. I really have always found it chilling that someone could be murdered in the next room, and you'd sleep right through it though, that's why the idea has always stuck with me.

[Michael W Richards]

Not comparable.

There were people coming and going, standing at doors, walking past with black bags, sat singing in a club etc at Berner Street.

At Hanbury Street, no witness came forward to say they'd entered that back yard except Richardson.

In fact Fleetwood the statements of the witnesses indicate that the yard was empty, and the street in front was empty for some time until Goldstein walked by. Lave and Eagle were 12:40...Goldstein was 12:55..thats 15 minutes where no activity is reported the morning of the murder. Of course that night activity abounds with Israel coming in.

One of their(Club) key premises is that on that night, unlike the majority of meeting nights when conversation and low men were in the yard often past 1am, the yard and passage were empty from about 12:40 on.

The Hanbury murder was at almost daylight in the open backyard of a house that had some 17 or so people in in at the time, many with windows open, many waking for work. If the killer of Stride was that same guy he would have gone further into the yard and cut more.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

If the killer of Stride was that same guy he would have gone further into the yard and cut more.

Like he did in Hanbury Street? Oh wait, he killed Chapman right to the side of the doorway...the only exit out. Same as Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

In fact Fleetwood the statements of the witnesses indicate that the yard was empty, and the street in front was empty for some time until Goldstein walked by. Lave and Eagle were 12:40...Goldstein was 12:55..thats 15 minutes where no activity is reported the morning of the murder. Of course that night activity abounds with Israel coming in.

One of their(Club) key premises is that on that night, unlike the majority of meeting nights when conversation and low men were in the yard often past 1am, the yard and passage were empty from about 12:40 on.

The Hanbury murder was at almost daylight in the open backyard of a house that had some 17 or so people in in at the time, many with windows open, many waking for work. If the killer of Stride was that same guy he would have gone further into the yard and cut more.

Best regards,

Mike R

And Brown, Mortimer, PC Smith, Diemschutz - Schwartz possibly.

The daylight point is irrelevant where there is no one around to observe what is going on.

Richardson alone comes forward to say that he entered that yard - in a 4 hour run up to the discovery of the body. At Berner Street, there are several people in and around the vicinity of the gates within an half an hour period.

This alone suggests he was more likely to have been disturbed at Berner Street than he was at Hanbury Street, or any other of the murder sites.

Edited to add: it is open to debate whether or not she was killed with daylight approaching.

[Michael W Richards]

Like he did in Hanbury Street? Oh wait, he killed Chapman right to the side of the doorway...the only exit out. Same as Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

in Hanbury Street the murder took place in the backyard, accessed through the house, it was a fair distance to a safe street to use. In Berner Street she was 18 feet from the side door and only a foot or 2 inside the gates.

The yard was empty at the time, far more private, and in distance, would be comparable to the distance from the street in Hanbury.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Michael W Richards]

And Brown, Mortimer, PC Smith, Diemschutz - Schwartz possibly.

The daylight point is irrelevant where there is no one around to observe what is going on.

Richardson alone comes forward to say that he entered that yard - in a 4 hour run up to the discovery of the body. At Berner Street, there are several people in and around the vicinity of the gates within an half an hour period.

This alone suggests he was more likely to have been disturbed at Berner Street than he was at Hanbury Street, or any other of the murder sites.

Edited to add: it is open to debate whether or not she was killed with daylight approaching.

I dont know what you mean by several people by the gates over a half hour period Fleetwood, after Lave and Eagle leave that area at 12:40ish there are 15 minutes when its likely no-one was anywhere near the gates.

Also, it is not open for debate whether daylight was approaching based on Cadosche or Long, whomever your choice. Check the sunrise time.

There is in fact no evidence that the killer was disturbed at Berner Street, not in the demeanor of the deceased anyway. The interruption scenario is only applicable to those that believe that the Ripper killer Stride, the least ripped of any Canonical Victim.

Pragmatism suggests caution accepting that premise, since again, there is no actual evidence for that conclusion.

The absence of evidence here is enough, we dont have to imagine we knew the mindset of the individual and his intent....hardly a sound investigative technique I would say.

Cheers Fleetwood,
Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

in Hanbury Street the murder took place in the backyard, accessed through the house, it was a fair distance to a safe street to use. In Berner Street she was 18 feet from the side door and only a foot or 2 inside the gates.

The yard was empty at the time, far more private, and in distance, would be comparable to the distance from the street in Hanbury.

Best regards,

Mike R

Distances are irrelevant. The point is that the killer in both Hanbury Street and Berner Street made sure that he was NEXT TO THE EXIT in the event he had to flee. Had Stride been killed far into the back yard, he would be deviating from his behavior in Hanbury Street. The location of this murder is yet another point of similarity between the Hanbury Street murder and the Berner Street murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Distances are irrelevant. The point is that the killer in both Hanbury Street and Berner Street made sure that he was NEXT TO THE EXIT in the event he had to flee. Had Stride been killed far into the back yard, he would be deviating from his behavior in Hanbury Street. The location of this murder is yet another point of similarity between the Hanbury Street murder and the Berner Street murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

To me Tom the entrance to the property and the backyard of one are disparate, not similar.

Liz Strides feet may have been a foot or two inside the gates, not the best local for a prostitute, with cottagers awake and the club side door ajar....further in the yard offered darkness and privacy. If shes not prostituting, why would Jack be interested?

Much of the physical evidence along with most of the circumstantial evidence suggest that there were substantial differences in these 2 murders.

The most obvious aside for the moment.

Cheers,

Mike R

[DrHopper]

And if Kelly was killed because of some Irish connection, surely she would have just been stabbbed or her throat slit to shut her up, there would be no need to totally destroy her!

Yes!
This exactly!
This is why the "Irish Theory" holds absolutely no water with me.
The line is that she was mutilated to send a message... but to whom?
We don't know who she was, they didn't know who she was - she was, according to the theory, in hiding under an assumed name, so who the hell would get the message?
"Oh no! A random murder of a person in Whitechapel, another JTR victim and one that is completely unconnected to me, I'd better keep my mouth shut just in case".
Or am I missing something?

[lynn cates]

Removals R Us

Hello Dr. You may be missing a good deal.

Have you, perchance, read the Clan-na-Gael message regarding informants? Familiarised yourself with the details of the Phoenix Park murders? Read the book about the murder of Dr. Cronin?

Cheers.
LC