Ripper victims were caught sleeping?

[Michael W Richards]

While it has always been assumed the five confirmed victims of the mysterious serial killer were soliciting when they were killed, Dr Hallie Rubenhold has said that they were all sleeping, and most of them were rough sleeping.

Apparently this Ripper "expert" has come out with a book claiming it's unfair to suggest Jack's victims were streetwalkers and that they must have been sleeping while attacked. I haven't seen mention of this on Casebook, but I don't monitor the forum that regularly. Just wondering if this book is a joke or for real.

Dr. John

I think the above can be modified a bit Dr, none of the Canonical Five were confirmed to have been killed by anyone specific, and there is certainly no confirmation that they were killed by the same man. The presumption that the Canonical Group were killed by Jack is just that.

As for sleeping, when they were attacked, logic alone dictates that Polly wasnt sleeping in plain view on the sidewalk, Annie could have been perhaps, Liz was not, Kate was not, and Mary may well have been. Thats 2 of 5...so, kind of a weak foundation for a new theory. When you add the fact that none of the Five have any known connection by murderer in the first place, ...well....

[harry]

My postings are not in support of any author,nor do I claim to have the answer as to what state of activity or non activity the victims were engaged in at time of death.
As to the most obvious answer or explanation,I have yet to see it.Some write that Bucks Row was neither a good place for a prostitute to seek a customer,nor a good place for the Ripper to seek a victim,yet both can be placed together there,so what is the obvious explanation for that meeting? Leaving aside that any such meeting was prearranged,it might suggest the claim of Whitechapel streets being a haven, 24 hours a day,for prostitutes,is false.

[PaulB]

I'm curious to see what this author makes of MJK's previous life, as she is the most enigmatic of the victims, and the one we know the least about.

Pat D.

Don't hold your breath.

[Pcdunn]

I'm curious to see what this author makes of MJK's previous life, as she is the most enigmatic of the victims, and the one we know the least about.

Pat D.

[Monty]

Eddowes seems to have fallen asleep whilst thimble tapping. Or sewing. Whichever.

Monty

[MrBarnett]

Typical! Someone comes up with a nice theory and then someone who knows the subject comes along and just has to spoil it.Haveyou no shame?

Obviously, when she laid down her weary head she bumped it on the cast iron coal hole cover and rendered herself temporarily unconscious.

[PaulB]

Typical! Someone comes up with a nice theory and then someone who knows the subject comes along and just has to spoil it.Haveyou no shame?

[Robert]

Since the Square was empty at 1.30, Kate Eddowes must have gone to sleep AND been disembowelled in 15 minutes - ten, if Lawende saw her.

[PaulB]

Harry, I agree, but nobody is saying that Nichols and Chapman couldn't have been sleeping, they're querying whether it is the most likely explanation for them being where they were found dead.

Also, Rubenhold's claim that ALL the victims were asleep when killed is a necessary corollary to her claim that the victims were not prostitutes, whereas the evidence is that they were and this is compounded by their confident prediction that they would quickly obtain their doss money and be back at their respective lodging houses in a short time. Given the number of ways they could have hoped to quickly make their doss money so late at night, their confidence is, as already said, highly suggestive. So, we have two known prostitutes intending to quickly obtain their doss money being found in a dark and/or secluded place... does the idea that they were sleeping there come high up the list of probabilities? But even if Nichols and Chapman did collapse in those places from exhaustion, it doesn't help Rubenhold's foundation argument that they weren't prostitutes. Not, of course, that you were arguing otherwise.

[harry]

What does appear likely,and I refer to Nichols and Chapman,is that in the very early hours of the mornings of their deaths,their main intent was to find a place to doss.They were tired and in need of sleep,as most of us are in the early hours.Both found themselves on the streets,not because that was their desire,but the circumstance of having no money.That they stayed on the streets,suggests to me that the means to obtain money did not occur..Whether the means involved prostitution,or some other involvement,leads to further suggestions,that if prostitution was the means,then there was a lack of cutomers,or they were seeking in the wrong places.Whatever,as time passed,the tiredness would increase,so I have no difficulty in accepting that at some stage they would stop and rest,and maybe sleep,and that occured,in the case of Chapman,at 29 Hanbury St,and Nichols in Bucks Row.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve. Do you have a specific citation in mind? I don't recall Helson, Spratling, nor Abberline specifically stating that Bucks Row was a known hot spot for prostitution, but perhaps I missed it. Most Ripper historians merely refer to its 'seclusion' or its proximity to Whitechapel Road. That she was soliciting is not based on any empirical evidence that Buck's Row was Nichols' usual patch, but is based on her activities and statements from earlier in the evening, 'what a jolly bonnet, etc.' Cheers.

Hi RJ
It's from the Police report of the 19th September:

"Bucks Row is a narrow quiet thoroughfare frequented by prostitutes for immoral purposes
at night and no doubt the yard of 29 Hanbury Street has been used for a similar purpose.”

It does seem to have been largely missed by people.


I see Simon had provided it before I replied

Thanks Simon.

Steve

[rjpalmer]

Thanks, Simon. As I said, I may have missed it; obviously I did. How I don't know, as it is a well-known report.

Of course, if one wants to fish in uncertain waters, we also have the claims, entirely dismissed, that someone was pounding on doors and screaming bloody murder that night, and thus the crime was not as neat-and-clean as has been assumed.

[Sam Flynn]

A week after Polly’s murder two reporters from the Evening News spent the morning hours, from 1.00 to 11.00 am, watching Buck’s Row.

Perhaps their conclusions would have been more definitive if they'd observed what went on in Bucks Row before the Ripper murders.

[Simon Wood]

Inspector Abberline, 19th September 1888 report—

"Bucks Row is a narrow quiet thoroughfare frequented by prostitutes for immoral purposes at night . . ."

A week after Polly’s murder two reporters from the Evening News spent the morning hours, from 1.00 to 11.00 am, watching Buck’s Row.

"[Buck's Row] is in every sense thoroughly respectable, every tenant being an old inhabitant, and of good class. In addition to well-to-do artisans, the row contains a mission hall, the factory of Messrs. Schneider and Sons, and the factories and warehouses of Messrs. Torr, and Browne and Eagle, together with the private residence of the Rev. Henry North Hall, the curate of St. Mary, Whitechapel."

[rjpalmer]

Thanks, JM.

Mrs. Green's statement is valuable, but of course the original comment was that Rubenhold had ignored "official police statements." This made me prick up my ears, because 2 or 3 years ago I tried to find any specific police references to Buck's Row being a resort of prostitution and couldn't find any. Perhaps it exists and I missed it. And even if it doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that Nichols wasn't attempting to use the street for that purpose.

I imagine the area in front of the train station was well-lighted at night and may have been a popular pick-up spot, but I'd be happier if I could find some actual contemporary reference to it. The "evidence," if one can even call it that, is all indirect.