Margaret Hames

[mariab]

I see your "ships cook", but my impression is that these records have been jotted down at different time frames, perhaps even by different hospital personnel? Too tired right now to say if it's the same hand, but even in the scan it looks like different ink to me. Though it'd be better if I looked at it after a good night's sleep, lol.

[Tom_Wescott]

It's the same entry, Maria, written by the same person at the same time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Contused Hip

Hi everyone.

I have to agree with Tom; I too see the word as singular, "hip", rather than the plural "hips". The letter "p" has a somewhat fainter or open top, making the next stroke appear to be an "s", but I don't think it is.

Enlarged images are attached. The page doesn't reproduce very clearly, but I think these images might help.

A contusion is an area of bruised tissue, so it can be caused by a fall, a blow, a bump, etc.

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

It's the same entry, Maria, written by the same person at the same time.

You think so? Looks like the same hand to me too, but if it's a hospital register, it would have been held over a long time-frame. The different looking ink can be explained by the pen having been dipped in ink during the process of writing. It would be best to be able to see the entire page, to get a better idea.

Thanx to Bunny for posting the zoom in. I'm afraid I still see "hips", with an incomplete "p". What makes the case for me is the blank space before the "s", like if the person who was writing this briefly lifted their hand off the paper. Which would point to 2 different letters.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs, great find. I confess though that I don't see an 's' at the end of 'Hip'. I just see 'Hip'. It might just be my eyes, though. If it's just one hip, I'd call it a fall. If it's both hips, I'd think that a little weird.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

You could be right, Tom (and Archaic). Compared to 'ships cook' the p does look similar and the s separate in ships cook, however I agree with Maria too, there does seem to be a space which elongates the word too much if it just said hip (the handwriting is quite narrow and tight). I think we all know contusions can be caused by falls, its been mentioned right at the beginning. It was just worth mentioning that if it reads hips plural then it would have been hard to bruise both in a fall at the same time, unless hit at one side and falling on to the other.

I still find it interesting that just a few months before she claims to have been attacked by some men and hopsitalised for a couple of weeks, she was also in the same hospital with an injury or injuries that kept her in hospital over 2 weeks. Maybe both were accidents in reality and she fabricated the story of being beaten after Emma claimed the same?

[mariab]

I still find it interesting that just a few months before she claims to have been attacked by some men and hopsitalised for a couple of weeks, she was also in the same hospital with an injury or injuries that kept her in hospital over 2 weeks. Maybe both were accidents in reality and she fabricated the story of being beaten after Emma claimed the same?

I kinda agree with your suspicion, Debs. Either she was VERY accident-prone ;-) or she might have been hanging out with an abusive pimp/clients. The fact that she might have tried to gain something out of the Emma Smith inquest doesn't necesserily mean that she was not injured and that she faked it, esp. with such long hospitalizations.

A bit hastily, cuz on my way to work.

[Bridewell]

One Hip

I kinda agree with your suspicion, Debs. Either she was VERY accident-prone ;-) or she might have been hanging out with an abusive pimp/clients. The fact that she might have tried to gain something out of the Emma Smith inquest doesn't necesserily mean that she was not injured and that she faked it, esp. with such long hospitalizations.

A bit hastily, cuz on my way to work.

I too read it as 'hip' (singular). If it were both hips, I think I would subscribe to the possibility of violent sexual assault. A contusion to one hip only, given that the incident occurred in March, makes a fall seems likely, especially in the light of the weather conditions in an age (probably) before effective road-gritting:

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/77659-the-snowfalls-of-march-1887/

regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry, but seeing the handwriting sample provided, I too, see it as "hip" singular

Dave

[Debra A]

No one needs to be sorry. If it says hip, it says hip.
Margaret was still in the Infirmary twice in the space of 9 months whether its singular or plural! On the Dec occasion she claimed to have been assaulted by some men and had injuries to her face and chest, while earlier in March she had bruising to her hip. I've checked either side of 87 and haven't come across her in the records again so she wasn't as unlucky in other years as she was in 87.

[Tom_Wescott]

What gets me is that the authorities didn't seem to have much if anything in place for these women when it came to food and shelter, but when it came to medical care, they seemed to have been well off. You could stub your toe and be given a bed and warm meals for weeks! I wonder if this wasn't an incentive for some of them. I also wonder if cocaine wasn't used in some of the medicinal potions that they handed out, such as that given to Annie Chapman. Also, where were they put up? Different places or was there one big ward? Sorry for all the questions, but these are some of the things I've been getting more curious about lately, and this thread set me off thinking about it all again.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Maggy may...or may not...

Hi Debs

Hip or Hips something's still happened to her, and although it could be a fall, I suspect your Post #10 applies...I'm not trying to minimise it, but it seems it was something of an occupational hazard in that area at that time though.

Dave

[mariab]

I hope that noone (for their own sake) is buying it that that lady was accident-prone.

What gets me is that the authorities didn't seem to have much if anything in place for these women when it came to food and shelter, but when it came to medical care, they seemed to have been well off. You could stub your toe and be given a bed and warm meals for weeks! I wonder if this wasn't an incentive for some of them.

Actually, I've been thinking that, but can't possibly fathom that Victorian destitute women would self-harm themselves with head lacerations for the purpose of a hospital bed. :-) In some ways it reminds me of the American welfare system.

I also wonder if cocaine wasn't used in some of the medicinal potions that they handed out, such as that given to Annie Chapman.

Wow, the use of cocaine is THAT old? You sure you don't mean morphine? Do you suspect that this is why the perp took her medicine?
PS.: Looked it up (but only on wiki) and cocaine was used as a cutting edge anesthetic in Germany/Austria, plus Coca Cola was apparently invented in 1885 in the US. Apart from Sherlock Holmes, I haven't seen any references about it in England.

Also, where were they put up? Different places or was there one big ward? Sorry for all the questions, but these are some of the things I've been getting more curious about lately, and this thread set me off thinking about it all again.

I recently was perusing some hospital pictures on JTRForums, but don't recall which thread, sorry.

[tji]

[QUOTE]

I hope that noone (for their own sake) is buying it that that lady was accident-prone.

And why would that be? If someone's opinion is that she is accident prone that is there opinion, not yours. You make it sound like you are threatening people who disagree with you - nice.

Wow, the use of cocaine is THAT old? You sure you don't mean morphine? Do you suspect that this is why the perp took her medicine?
PS.: Looked it up (but only on wiki) and cocaine was used as a cutting edge anesthetic in Germany/Austria, plus Coca Cola was apparently invented in 1885 in the US. Apart from Sherlock Holmes, I haven't seen any references about it in England.

Cocaine was used to wean people off morphine in Victorian times. It was also used in lots of 'everyday' items, nasal sprays, toothpaste, cold tonics.

Tracy

[Debra A]

What gets me is that the authorities didn't seem to have much if anything in place for these women when it came to food and shelter, but when it came to medical care, they seemed to have been well off. You could stub your toe and be given a bed and warm meals for weeks! I wonder if this wasn't an incentive for some of them. I also wonder if cocaine wasn't used in some of the medicinal potions that they handed out, such as that given to Annie Chapman. Also, where were they put up? Different places or was there one big ward? Sorry for all the questions, but these are some of the things I've been getting more curious about lately, and this thread set me off thinking about it all again.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.
The Whitechapel Union Infirmary was the place for sick paupers, the Whitechapel workhouse was the place for paupers with no shelter or food. Trouble was there were conditions applied for gaining free food and shelter in the workhouse-you had to pay back with physical work, stick to the strict rules of the workhouse and NO alcohol allowed! Which probably put more than a few people off going there, unless as a last resort.

I suspect the care at the Infirmary would have been quite basic but if you were on the streets in Winter and had severe bronchitis then it would be very sensible to head there as no conditions were imposed (obviously no alcohol again but no work payment was involved), if you were sick you were sick and you got treatment. It was an essential service for many people, just think how difficult things like giving birth would be if you were part of the lodging house population! My guess would be that the doctors, nurses and board of guardians would be very aware of potential misuse of the Infirmary and be keen to spot such cases and prevent it happening.
The Union infirmaries were the same as any other hospitals with doctors, nurses and different wards.

Cocaine? I bet they used it at the London Hospital or anywhere where surgery was done as I think one of its main uses at this time was as a local anesthetic?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

Hip or Hips something's still happened to her, and although it could be a fall, I suspect your Post #10 applies...I'm not trying to minimise it, but it seems it was something of an occupational hazard in that area at that time though.

Dave

Hi Dave.
I would bet that many of the women in the records claimed to have 'accidents' to explain their injuries (the majority probably domestic in nature) and no one would feel the need to persuade them otherwise or inform the police even if they had major suspicions and the woman's story didn't quite add up.