Literacy of Jack's Victims?

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

First, I apologize if this has been discussed before--I did try the search engine and came up empty, but I'm an utter Luddite with computers so that's pretty meaningless, lol.

I was just wondering how many of Jack's victims were literate? Obviously none were scholars , I'm just wondering how many of them could read and write, do at least simple sums, things like that.

I know that Polly Nichols was literate, as was her father--we've got the letter she wrote to him when she found herself a "respectable position" and know that he wrote back--regrettably too late, after she had decamped with some clothing.

Apparently Liz Stride was also literate, as attested by records back in her native Sweden. (She also seems to have had quite a gift for languages--altho her mother tongue of course was Swedish, she was said to speak English like a native and I think I read somewhere that she also spoke at least some Yiddish while working for Jewish families??)

The others I'm not sure about and would appreciate enlightenment. (I need all of that I can get!! )

I especially wonder about Mary Kelly--not only because we know so very little about her (and what we do know is suspect--both she and Long Liz appear to have been keen liars), but because she was said to be fearful of the Ripper, but still would ask Joe Barnett to read her articles about the murders from local papers. Why would she ask him to read the stories to her if she could read them for herself?!

Anyway I would love to hear your responses!

[Steven Russell]

Good question, Mrs. F.

I think someone on this site posted that an acquaintance of Catherine Eddowes described her as "scholarly" or "quite a scholarly woman" - something like that. The A-Z has her at school until 1855 when she would have been twelve or thirteen, and possibly for an unspecified period following this at a different school. Assuming her attendance wasn't too sporadic, we can be quite confident that she was at least reasonably literate and numerate.

As far as Mary Kelly goes, we are really in the dark since, as you say, the majority of what is "known" about her comes from what Joseph Barnett had to say following her death. He said that Kelly liked him to read the paper to her and that she was interested in the reports of the murders. There was a recent thread speculating on Kelly's literacy (I think on jtrforums) bearing this remark of Barnett's in mind. Questions considered included:

Was Barnett telling the truth?
Did Kelly need him to read to her because her literacy was poor?
Or did she simply enjoy having Barnett read to her?
Did Kelly have poor eyesight?

No consensus could be reached as it all boiled down to ifs, buts, and maybes.

Hope this is of use.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Supe]

Stephen,

I think it was discussed here (don't ask me where), but I know that i discussed it during my presentation at Wolverhampton in 2007.

Most likely it was a nice moment of domestic bliss between Joe and Mary Jane. That is, from time immemorial (or at least until the advent of the radio) families would of an evening gather in front of the fireplace and someone, usually a male, would read from a book or newspaper while the women were busy with their hands darning, sewing, mending, whatever.

There are repeated references in literature to this practice in rural and urban settings and it is instructive that in Scotland Yard Investigates, by Evans and Rumbelow, there is an October 2, 1888, letter from a woman in Staffordshire to the Yard that begins: "."While sitting sewing and listening to my husband reading the London atrocities last evening a renewed and strong Presentiment came to my mind as to who the man might possibly be . . ."

That the woman wrote the letter proves she was literate, so that Joe claimed to read the news to Mary Jane is no reason to believe she was not literate. Rather, it suggests their moments together at No. 13 were not all fighting and breaking windows.

Don.

[Steven Russell]

Don,

I agree with everything you say except perhaps "most likely". No doubt it was a privilege/duty of the head of the house to disseminate the news (and presumably put his own spin on it). But in the case of Kelly and her level of literacy, the answer must surely be a resounding "Dunno".

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Supe]

Steven,

Your reply puzzles me a bit. That is, do you not think Joe reading to Mary Jane of an evening did not represent a scene of domestic bliss, because that is where I said "most likely"? As for Mary's literacy, I made no claim besides saying that Joe reading to her was not, itself, evidence of illiteracy on her part, no more than it was for the womn from Staffordshire. For that matter, there is also the scene in Great Expectations where those being read to were all quite literate.

It should also be understood that reading a newspaper or book by the fire was necessarily the duty or privilege of the "head of the household." The historian David Souden (absolutely no relation) mentions one instance of a child reading to the family because the head of household also was busy with his hands mending shoes.

As for Kelly's possible literacy, what does one make of McCarthy claiming to receive letters for her?

Don.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Don,

Could it not be that ALL the boarders of Miller's Court had their letters posted to McCarthy?

I am yet to see, unless I am very mistaken and need new glasses, a letterbox slit cut out of the door of 13 Miller's Court..therefore, where exactly would the postman put any letters? Not under the door that's for certain, and as there was no name on the door or by the side of it, I'd imagine the same would be with the other rooms. Therefore a collective delivery point...McCarthy's. The man who collected the combined rent...the owner.

There is a great deal of fluidity in who lives where and for how long in the one room hovels of his.. so the easiest and most logical explanation would be that all post was delivered to McCarthy. After all, without a name or letter box on the doors, how would the postman know whom lived where?

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

Could it not be that ALL the boarders of Miller's Court had their letters posted to McCarthy?

Phil

Although this won't answer the question of literacy, I think you are probably correct with that statement, Phil.
Looking at female convict files from the 1880s, several of the women give a name and c/o address of people they would like to write to, or receive letters from (even the illiterate ones sent and received letters, obviously with help from others). These names and addresses were first checked out by police, prisoners being refused contact with known criminals or their asociates. Here's an example of the results of one such check by police from H Division. This is in reply to a female prisoner listing a Mary A Sullivan c/o Mr Hatton of 19 Brick Lane, as someone she would like to write to:



"I have made inquiry relative to Mary A Sullivan of Mr. Hatton residing at Brick Lane Whitechapel and find that she is not known to him. Mr Hatton receives letters for his customers at the common lodging houses in the neighbourhood."

Mr. Hatton was a grocer at 19 Brick Lane so perhaps just the fact that McCarthy was the local shopkeeper would be a possible reason letters might be sent c/o him?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you for this example. I had a feeling this really must be the case. Without a letterbox not name nor number on the door, the postman would never know who was actually living in this rented accomodation at any given time.

A joyous Christmas to you and your family and a peaceful and prosperous New Year. :-)

Seasons greetings

Phil

[Errata]

Not that it is evidence of anything, but I have never read anything about huge swathes of illiterates in the Victorian era. Well, except maybe Oliver Twist. There were certainly populations of people who could not read or write English, but Mary Kelly would not fall into that category.

The irony is that despite the sort of institutionalized misogyny of the era, women were often more literate than men in the lower classes. For the simple reason that they stayed at home longer. Boys could go to work as young as 8, but girls were not particularly useful until about 11 or 12.

None of these women were born into the squalor they found themselves in at the time of their death. Their families were certainly poor, but not desperately so. Their fathers had respectable jobs, their mothers appeared to not have to work. Charity schools were available. There is no particular reason for them to be illiterate.

But I think the best evidence for Mary Kelly's literacy is that her landlord said that she had received a letter from her mother. Certainly Kelly spent most of her life living with others, and could easily have the letter read to her. But I cannot imagine why Kelly would be illiterate when her mother was not. Even if no school was available to her in childhood, it was one of a mother's duties to educate her children. Kelly's mother should have taught her to read and write, and I cannot think of any reason why she would not have done exactly that. I think we have to assume that people acted within their duties and within societal norms until there is evidence that for some reason they did not. In other words, if I have a chicken, I am going to assume that it lays eggs, until there is proof that it doesn't.

So why have the newspaper read to her? That was How Things Were Done. Certainly in the upper classes, women were forbidden the newspaper out of the belief that the news would be far too upsetting. A husband or father would read the paper first, and then read aloud the sections he felt were appropriate for women. In the lower classes, especially the street classes, it made little sense to men to edit content for women. If there was a murder, they would have heard about it. But newspapers would still be in the province of men. I imagine in Mary Kelly's case, she liked Barnett to read her the articles about murders and mayhem for the same reason kids tell each other ghost stories around the campfire. Sure you can read a ghost story yourself, but it's not the same.

[Steven Russell]

Steven,

Your reply puzzles me a bit. That is, do you not think Joe reading to Mary Jane of an evening did not represent a scene of domestic bliss, because that is where I said "most likely"? As for Mary's literacy, I made no claim besides saying that Joe reading to her was not, itself, evidence of illiteracy on her part, no more than it was for the womn from Staffordshire. For that matter, there is also the scene in Great Expectations where those being read to were all quite literate.

It should also be understood that reading a newspaper or book by the fire was necessarily the duty or privilege of the "head of the household." The historian David Souden (absolutely no relation) mentions one instance of a child reading to the family because the head of household also was busy with his hands mending shoes.



As for Kelly's possible literacy, what does one make of McCarthy claiming to receive letters for her?

Don.

Don,
Sorry if I got up your nose but I was agreeing with you.

Best wishes, Steve.

[Supe]

Steve,

I agree, I was not at all gracious. Unfortunately, I chose to answer at an awkward moment and that affected my answer. I apologize.

Don.

[Tom_Wescott]

He went from Supe to nuts.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I think another reason men read to women at that time was because they knew how to 'edit' to suit the woman's tastes. Mary may have read the papers but avoided the gorier stuff. She would have been aware that a woman going by Mary Ann Kelly had been murdered.

Regarding Stride, she could speak three languages (English, Swedish, Yiddish) and read/write in at least the first two. Quite an achievement in any day or age. Polly Nichols was very literate as we know from the letter she sent to her father, which incidentally was signed 'Yours truly'. I wonder sometimes if that didn't influence the 'Dear Boss' writer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

scholars galore

Hello Tom. Yes, and Eddowes was described as scholarly. (MJK was also described that way in at least one paper. Sadly, I've lost the reference.)

Cheers.
LC

[The Grave Maurice]

Interesting. So we seem to have evidence that would lead us to believe that Nichols, Eddowes, Stride, and Kelly were literate. What about Chapman? Somehow, I would have included her immediately; however, after a brief look through the sources, I don't see anything to support her inclusion, except that she has a book in her lap in the photograph that Neil Shelden discovered...but that, of course, could simply be a prop.