Literacy of Jack's Victims?

[Debra A]

Hello Tom. Yes, and Eddowes was described as scholarly. (MJK was also described that way in at least one paper. Sadly, I've lost the reference.)

Cheers.
LC

Hi all,
I've always been going to check something out about the description of MJK as scholarly (and also artistic, was it?) But never got round to it. Maybe someone else knows this though; Were the reports about MJK being scholarly made independently of the reports that she was really Abbi Kelly, from Llanelli? I mean, did that identification influence the newspapers descriptions of her at all? Or was there corroboration from friends or acquaintances that MJK was educated before Abi's name came into things?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hull Daily Mail Nov. 12th, 1888


'Further inquiries during the night have thrown little fresh light on the circumstances of the Whitechapel murder. There is good reason to believe that the unhappy woman Kelly was a native of Cardiff, where her family, according to her statement, were well-to-do people. She is stated to have been very well educated, and an artist of some pretensions.'

I quoted this in my article 'Mary Kelly & the Decadents' for Casebook Examiner, where I noted the remarkable coincidence that 6 or 7 non-contemporaneously alleged suspects all knew each other, all were poets and artists, and at least two claimed to have personally known Mary Kelly. Kelly also claimed to have had a relative on the stage and it's not impossible that there's some truth in all this and Kelly had been known in some artistic circles. The apparent suspicion involving artist William Magrath might play a part in this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

[B]
'Further inquiries during the night have thrown little fresh light on the circumstances of the Whitechapel murder. There is good reason to believe that the unhappy woman Kelly was a native of Cardiff, where her family, according to her statement, were well-to-do people. She is stated to have been very well educated, and an artist of some pretensions.'

Thanks, Tom. These are the type of clips I am talking about in my question.
The John Morgan Hopkins/John Rees/Mary Jane Rees/Aby Kelly story places MJK from Llanelly but part of the story is played out in Cardiff. Notice this source mentions Cardiff too. Are the 'further inquries throwing fresh light on the subject' rumours circulating about MJK being the one time servant of John and convicted abortionist Mary Jane Rees (nee Hopkins) and reported in the Welsh papers?

[miss marple]

They have to sign their names on their wedding certificates,a cross was used if they were illiterate, so copies of the wedding certificates of the victims would be helpful.

I think they were all literate to a basic degree, Many of the Agricultural Irish were functionally illiterate but had a gift with words and a tradition of oral storytelling.

From the point of reading aloud, newspapers had very small print and in a basic light would be difficult to read properly, so being'' read to' by Joe would be better than struggling with the print'

Miss Marple

[Archaic]

Custom of Reading Aloud

Most likely it was a nice moment of domestic bliss between Joe and Mary Jane. That is, from time immemorial (or at least until the advent of the radio) families would of an evening gather in front of the fireplace and someone, usually a male, would read from a book or newspaper while the women were busy with their hands darning, sewing, mending, whatever.

That the woman wrote the letter proves she was literate, so that Joe claimed to read the news to Mary Jane is no reason to believe she was not literate. Rather, it suggests their moments together at No. 13 were not all fighting and breaking windows. Don.

I have to agree with Don here. In the Victorian era- in fact well into the days of Radio- it was the prevailing custom that household members gathered together in the evening while one member read aloud.

In middle class and wealthy families, females (both women and girls) were expected to keep their hands busy with embroidery, crocheting, etc. It was considered unseemly for ladies to sit around 'idly', because "the devil finds work for idle hands". Queen Victoria was a stalwart supporter of this view and insisted that her female family members always keep their hands busy with needlework, etc. Even the Empress of Russia never sat 'idly' in the evening, but worked intricate embroideries and laces as another family member read aloud. In her case it was often her husband Tsar Nicholas who did the reading for their family circle, but as her children grew up they took turns.

It was often the man of the family who read aloud, but not always; whoever had a nice reading voice would take their turn. Most people probably encountered the works of authors such as Charles Dickens by listening as the chapters were read aloud to them. Books termed "improving works" were often read aloud; these were moralistic, philosophical and religious works.

In working class households a similar custom was followed, but because books were rather expensive it was often the penny newspaper or the old family Bible that was read. Instead of creating fabulously intricate embroideries, the girls and women would sit with whatever work they had to do- mending, darning, making items to sell - while someone read aloud. They would naturally gather together in front of the fireplace, as it was their source of both heat and light in an otherwise dark room.

In Mary's case, maintaining 'social propriety' doesn't seem to have been a particular issue, so we can expect that there were times when she 'sat idly' as Joe read aloud to her, but there would also have been times when she sewed, mended, etc. And there were probably times that she read aloud to him.

In short, the custom of reading aloud to others was so prevalent throughout the Victorian era that it simply cannot be regarded as any evidence of the listener's illiteracy.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Phil Carter]

They have to sign their names on their wedding certificates,a cross was used if they were illiterate, so copies of the wedding certificates of the victims would be helpful.

I think they were all literate to a basic degree, Many of the Agricultural Irish were functionally illiterate but had a gift with words and a tradition of oral storytelling.

From the point of reading aloud, newspapers had very small print and in a basic light would be difficult to read properly, so being'' read to' by Joe would be better than struggling with the print'

Miss Marple

Hello MM,

Indeed. A few of my grandmother's siblings were illiterate (9 born in total between 1873-1888). In addition, 3 of my 6 East End great grandparents born between 1848 and 1858) were illiterate. I have copies of the known marriage certificates and there are various "mark of" examples signified with a cross. The illiterate ones were all women, which was more common in those days anyway.

best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Marriage Certificates

Hi Phil

There's one matched pair of X's (husband and wife) in my lot, but the rest (per their marriage certificates) seem reasonably literate...

But I'm not sure that a marriage certificate alone tells us that much though...My poor old ma could sign her name and write a letter, (of sorts), but to all intents and purposes she was functionally only semi literate...in that she omitted letters, badly misspelt most words and had extreme difficulty getting most of her meaning across...but her marriage certificate's fine!

Dave

[Bridewell]

Signatures

Hi Dave,

Adam Wood pointed out to me something I'd missed:- that Albert Cadosch's bigamously married second wife, Elizabeth Stobart, signed her name when she married him, but made her mark when she registered his death. It would seem that the ability to write a name on a document is, as you suggest, not an accurate guide to literacy.

Regards Bridewell.

[Supe]

Bridewell,

While often used as a means to guage literacy by historians and other researchers, it is not at all infallible as studies have shown many clearly literate people signing with a mark out of convenience, crippling diseases like arthritis or just cussedness.

In that last category, when "assaulted" on the street by those pestiferous persons seeking my signature on political petitions, I invariably sign with an X. They then demand to know what I'm about and i explain that I am well within my rights to sign with my signature or my mark. This leaves them angry and frustrated, which was my intention.

Don.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Don,

Can't quite see some of the old dears from my family past "x"ing a petition (had they met a petitioner)... a rolling pin in hand would have it's way, methinks.
One didn't mess with those old dears..oh no. 5ft tall and 5ft round. Mouth on them like a trooper, too.

Dave will probably confirm this type of woman being common, methinks.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi Dave,

Adam Wood pointed out to me something I'd missed:- that Albert Cadosch's bigamously married second wife, Elizabeth Stobart, signed her name when she married him, but made her mark when she registered his death. It would seem that the ability to write a name on a document is, as you suggest, not an accurate guide to literacy.

Regards Bridewell.

Hello Colin,

Agreed...however the start of the children's education act has a bearing on all this too. Plus the fact that before it was compulsory, girls were educated at home in homely chores more often than not to go out into service at a young age (12). Although my gran, born 1888, was l;iterate, she started work at 12 in service in a large house in the West End.

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Victorian Literacy Chart

I came across a Victorian literacy chart on the following website: http://www.bl.uk/collections/early/v.../pr_intro.html

It graphs the literacy rate for men and women living in England and Wales from 1841-1900.

Victorian literacy rates tended to be lower in rural areas. A contributing factor was the greater enforcement of Education laws in more urban areas.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Hello Archaic,

Thanks for that. From the little info that the site gives, and given it is a survey of brides and bridegrooms, I would guess and say this information is catalogued from how many signed their name on the marraige certificate, and how many left their mark, 'X'.

best wishes

Phil

[miss marple]

It would be interesting to see the marriage certs of Tabrum,Nichols and Chapman, just to see their signatures. Eddowes was educated at a Charity School so literate,and Stride was literate by all accounts and good with languages.
I imagine Kelly was literate to a degree, but probably better at the' craic'
I find it strange that Kelly failed to ever get a proper job, just lived off men, she seemed to have no skill, with her personality would have made a good barmaid but even that seemed beyond her.

Miss Marple

[lynn cates]

new weapon

Hello Don.

" . . . when "assaulted" on the street by those pestiferous persons seeking my signature on political petitions, I invariably sign with an X. They then demand to know what I'm about and i explain that I am well within my rights to sign with my signature or my mark. This leaves them angry and frustrated, which was my intention."

Thanks. A new weapon in my arsenal.

Cheers.
LC