Victim Strangulation - Manual or rope?

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Errata.
Medical conditions can mimic a variety of ill's, but the fact dark blood is in all your veins & arteries(?), and not only in some organs, but not others, or in arteries but not veins, will be readily observable by anyone, especially a doctor.

Here are Dr. Phillips observations which were deleted from the inquest report on Chapman.

The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation. In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat."

Then, with respect to the death of Rose Mylett, Dr Brownfield observed:

ALL INDICATED DEATH BY SUFFOCATION.

The left side of the heart was full of fluid black blood - particularly filled and particularly black - and the lungs were gorged with the same fluid black blood, meaning that for the space of several respirations she had not breathed before the heart ceased to pulsate. Looking at the condition of all the organs in conjunction with the mark round the throat, my opinion is that death was caused by strangulation by means of a cord being pulled tightly round the neck."

Both quotes are published in The Star, Dec. 24, 1888.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881224.html

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Hi Errata.
However, I have already posted one condition which does 'prove' strangulation, that is the presence of black blood in the heart, lungs & brain of the victim.
Black blood is blood which contains no oxygen, the only way blood can be black after it has been pumped from the heart is when the victim's heart has been pumping after the lungs have stopped issuing oxygen. In other words asphyxiation is present.
Regards, Jon S.

Ok. First off, I'm just gonna say that I'm flying a little blind on this one. I haven't seen autopsy accounts with descriptions of black blood in the brain etc. So I'm not really sure I am picturing what you are talking about correctly. But be that as it may...

I bleed black blood. Have for 20 years. I have a condition that causes a permanent state of dehydration. So my blood is thick and dark and occasionally makes weird sounds when I have to have labs done and it really freaks out the rookies. Now, unless i need to have ANOTHER talk with my fiance about how my sleeping body is not a toy, I don't think I am being strangled.

Girls have a different experience with blood than guys do. My dad is an OB/GYN which was horrifying but informative. Women occasionally bleed black or dark brown during their periods, especially if they have an irregular cycle. An irregular cycle can cause an accumulation of uterine lining, so the black blood is in fact old blood. Were it not for it's placement in the uterus the old rusty hemoglobin would have been punted to the waste system.

And my uncle has black blood too, but he has malaria.

Black blood sounds very different to me than veinous blood, which is certainly darker but still red. Veinous blood is deoxygenated blood. I feel that if it were solely a function of oxygen, it would be dark red, sort of purple-y, rather than black.

Now I know several of these women clearly had lung issues. Chapman was dying from them. It wouldn't surprise me if those women had darker blood. But I still don't know if it would be that dark.

I certainly don't think that all of these women had leukemia or something. Nitrate poisoning is possible, and that makes black blood, but it would be so common in London as to not be worth noting. Dehydration would do it, high iron, lung disease, jaundice, heart murmur I would think, clotting disease.... I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this black blood business. I think clearly it can be caused by other things, although I cannot say what would cause it three different women. Dehydration seems likely, but I don't know. I'm going to mull it over.

[Wickerman]

...I actually don't buy that they were strangled (asphyxiated, choked, deprived of oxygen to either lungs or brain through manual or mechanical means).

Hi Errata.
Well, most authorities will agree that there are a variety of conditions which may indicate strangulation.
- Sometimes, but not always petechia in the skin.
- Sometimes, but not always, protrusion of the tongue.
- Sometimes, but not always, a broken hyoid bone.
So none of these conditions by themselves 'prove' strangulation, likewise the absense of any one of these conditions do not 'disprove' strangulation.

However, I have already posted one condition which does 'prove' strangulation, that is the presence of black blood in the heart, lungs & brain of the victim.
Black blood is blood which contains no oxygen, the only way blood can be black after it has been pumped from the heart is when the victim's heart has been pumping after the lungs have stopped issuing oxygen. In other words asphyxiation is present.
The caveat with this detail is that black blood does not always mean murder, it may also be present in a suicide. The fact these victims were cut to pieces afterwards tends to argue against suicide...

These victims were strangled, and it was murder.

...
But in general, it is inaccurate to say that a chokehold has no bearing on arterial spray. It does affect arterial spray if applied until death occurs. Is all.

In general, yes, you are correct.

Regards, Jon S.

[Edward]

Signs of Strangulation

Hello All!

While searching for signs that a victim has been strangled, I found a very interesting essay “Death by Strangulation” by Dr. Dean Hawley at the following website:

http://www.markwynn.com/dv/Death%20by%20Strangulation%20-%20Dr.%20Dean%20Hawley.pdf

Amongst the common signs of strangulation, the author made the following statements.

“… strangulation produces evidence of asphyxiation, recognized as pinpoint hemorrhages (petechiae) in the skin, conjunctiva of the eyes, and deep internal organs.”

With respect to the victim’s eyes, whites of the eyes often become blood red due to these hemorrhages. It seems to me that blood red eyes would be noticeable by the most casual observer, let alone a physician conducting an autopsy.

Also this, in regards to the fracture of the hyoid bone:

“A common cited injury is fracture of the hyoid bone, actually only found in a minority (no more than one third) of all fatal strangulations.”

What to you think? Were the victims rendered unconscious by strangulation? Most of the victims were in poor health, and may not have been able to put up much of a fight. In the video link provided by smezenen, unconsciousness occurred quite quickly, but not as quickly as a blow to the head. I’m up in the air about what to think.

By the way, the use of a “choke hold” to subdue prisoners has been abandoned by many police forces here in the USA due to fatalities.

Edward

[Errata]

I think you will find that cause of death is by syncope (loss of blood) due to the severance of the carotid artery (this with reference to Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes).

Regards, Jon S.

Well yes I would imagine. I wasn't referring to the specifics of these victims really. I actually don't buy that they were strangled (asphyxiated, choked, deprived of oxygen to either lungs or brain through manual or mechanical means). But in general, it is inaccurate to say that a chokehold has no bearing on arterial spray. It does affect arterial spray if applied until death occurs. Is all.

[Wickerman]

Well, there is one caveat to this statement. A choke hold would not affect arterial spray. But death would. So if they were choked to death...

I think you will find that cause of death is by syncope (loss of blood) due to the severance of the carotid artery (this with reference to Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes).

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

SO in short, if I understand you correctly, using a choke hold won't stop arterial spray but theoretically Jack (I used the killer to avoid the on going debate about who is a victim of JAck and who isn't) could have time to position the victims in such a way as to avoid getting covered in blood.

Well, there is one caveat to this statement. A choke hold would not affect arterial spray. But death would. So if they were choked to death...

[YankeeSergeant]

weekend

Correct.
Any weekend is a good one when you're on the sunny-side of the grass!

Amen!

[Wickerman]

thanks Jon, I was talking about Jack the Ripper and I didn't think your answer was pedantic. SO in short, if I understand you correctly, using a choke hold won't stop arterial spray but theoretically Jack (I used the killer to avoid the on going debate about who is a victim of JAck and who isn't) could have time to position the victims in such a way as to avoid getting covered in blood. Thank for all of your help with this. Hope you're enjoying the weekend.

Correct.
Any weekend is a good one when you're on the sunny-side of the grass!

[YankeeSergeant]

Blood

Sorry to be pedantic here but I assume you are talking about Jack the Ripper, not any other similar killing in general?

Unfortunately, the most medical evidence we have which provides any clue to how Jack initially attacked his victims is that provided at the Chapman inquest.
The evidence shows lack of oxygen in the blood, not lack of blood to the brain.

Quote:
"....the tongue protuded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger nails & lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation.In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of the opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat".
The Star, December 24, 1888.
(emphasis, Jon)



When the blood flow to the brain is restricted the victim may suffer a mild stroke, or Ischemia, the sensory portions of the brain begin to shut down.




No, blood pressure still exists in the body below the imposed restriction in the neck (ligature?). Once the victim falls 'asleep' the restriction (ligature) is removed and blood flow returns to the brain. So there is no loss of blood pressure within the cardiovascular system.
Depending how long the restriction is in place will depend on whether the victim will revive, so the killer has seconds to then lay her down and cut her jugglar, relieving pressure, then slicing the throat completely from side to side.

Regards, Jon S.

thanks Jon, I was talking about Jack the Ripper and I didn't think your answer was pedantic. SO in short, if I understand you correctly, using a choke hold won't stop arterial spray but theoretically Jack (I used the killer to avoid the on going debate about who is a victim of JAck and who isn't) could have time to position the victims in such a way as to avoid getting covered in blood. Thank for all of your help with this. Hope you're enjoying the weekend.

[Wickerman]

...Could the killer have applied pressure to the carotid arteries or jugulars and rendered his victims unconcious...

Sorry to be pedantic here but I assume you are talking about Jack the Ripper, not any other similar killing in general?

Unfortunately, the most medical evidence we have which provides any clue to how Jack initially attacked his victims is that provided at the Chapman inquest.
The evidence shows lack of oxygen in the blood, not lack of blood to the brain.

Quote:
"....the tongue protuded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger nails & lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation.In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of the opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat".
The Star, December 24, 1888.
(emphasis, Jon)

...
and how would that have affected blood flow?

When the blood flow to the brain is restricted the victim may suffer a mild stroke, or Ischemia, the sensory portions of the brain begin to shut down.

...
For example could rendering someone unconcious in such a manner restrict blood flow enough to avoid arterial spray? And would it show up on an autopsy?

No, blood pressure still exists in the body below the imposed restriction in the neck (ligature?). Once the victim falls 'asleep' the restriction (ligature) is removed and blood flow returns to the brain. So there is no loss of blood pressure within the cardiovascular system.
Depending how long the restriction is in place will depend on whether the victim will revive, so the killer has seconds to then lay her down and cut her jugglar, relieving pressure, then slicing the throat completely from side to side.

Regards, Jon S.

[YankeeSergeant]

Questions

There's a few things here that need clarification.

Asphyxiation relates directly to the deprivation of oxygen to the lungs, it does not directly stop blood flow to the brain.

Pressure applied to the jugglar veins directly reduces blood flow to the brain but the victim is still able to breath. When such action is applied the victim invariably falls asleep, unconscious.

None of the Cannonical Ripper victims showed signs of manual strangulation.
Chapman's neck did show marks (scratches?) which ran contrary to the alignment of the cuts across the throat.
Put plainly, without photographic evidence to the contrary, this observation suggests the scratches were vertical to the horizontal cut.
Interpretation:
Chapman scratched her own neck in an attempt to remove something tight & thin like a cord?
Medical evidence not recorded by the press at the Chapman inquest indicated her heart & lungs contained black fluid blood.
This is consistent with the victims heart continuing to beat after her ability to take in breath was halted. Direct evidence of asphyxiation.

With respect to the previous Whitechapel murders, Dr. Brownfield, after viewing the body of Rose Mylett was of the opinon that the Whitechapel Murderer had used his knife to cut along the line produced by a garotte/string/cord/ligature which had been first applied to induce unconsciousness. Thereby removing the evidence that a ligature had been used.

Example of the line produced by a garotte/ligature.

Courtesy, Crime Scene, Larry Ragle, 2002

O.K., that part I understand. I guess my question is and this will come into play in my novel. Could the killer have applied pressure to the carotid arteries or jugulars and rendered his victims unconcious and how would that have affected blood flow? For example could rendering someone unconcious in such a manner restrict blood flow enough to avoid arterial spray? And would it show up on an autopsy?

[Wickerman]

Scorpio,
Aspyxiation is stopping the blood flow to the brain resulting in unconsciousness, made by pressure to the arterys, while choking is the fracture of the Hyroid bone. Two completely different types of killing.
In fact, the only mention of Liz's handkerchief is that it was tighly pulled to the left, indicating her killer likely dragged her by the handkerchief. However, while it is possible she was aspyxiated, no evidence supports the claim.
Corey

There's a few things here that need clarification.

Asphyxiation relates directly to the deprivation of oxygen to the lungs, it does not directly stop blood flow to the brain.

Pressure applied to the jugglar veins directly reduces blood flow to the brain but the victim is still able to breath. When such action is applied the victim invariably falls asleep, unconscious.

None of the Cannonical Ripper victims showed signs of manual strangulation.
Chapman's neck did show marks (scratches?) which ran contrary to the alignment of the cuts across the throat.
Put plainly, without photographic evidence to the contrary, this observation suggests the scratches were vertical to the horizontal cut.
Interpretation:
Chapman scratched her own neck in an attempt to remove something tight & thin like a cord?
Medical evidence not recorded by the press at the Chapman inquest indicated her heart & lungs contained black fluid blood.
This is consistent with the victims heart continuing to beat after her ability to take in breath was halted. Direct evidence of asphyxiation.

With respect to the previous Whitechapel murders, Dr. Brownfield, after viewing the body of Rose Mylett was of the opinon that the Whitechapel Murderer had used his knife to cut along the line produced by a garotte/string/cord/ligature which had been first applied to induce unconsciousness. Thereby removing the evidence that a ligature had been used.

Example of the line produced by a garotte/ligature.

Courtesy, Crime Scene, Larry Ragle, 2002

[Errata]

O.K., let me ask becuase I'm rather ignorant on the whole forensic area. Would a choke hold such as the police use to subdue a suspect break the hyboid (SP) bone or indeed show on the autpsy? I assume and perhaps our inresident combat instructor of one of you gentlemen or ladies with experience in the field can tell me if this would render the victim unconcious so the killer could finish his task without resistance.

I imagine it would depend on how one executes the chokehold. If the bend of the elbow is over the adam's apple, I would think not. Pressure would be exerted on the sides and not so much the front. If it's a straight arm across the front of the throat, I would think so.

[YankeeSergeant]

Choke holds

O.K., let me ask becuase I'm rather ignorant on the whole forensic area. Would a choke hold such as the police use to subdue a suspect break the hyboid (SP) bone or indeed show on the autpsy? I assume and perhaps our inresident combat instructor of one of you gentlemen or ladies with experience in the field can tell me if this would render the victim unconcious so the killer could finish his task without resistance.