The photographing of Eddowes in situ.

[Monty]

Having listened to the Victims photgraphs podcast the other day, with Robert McLaughlin, there was something Rob said that got my cogs whirring.

Rob stated his personal belief that the City police were very prepared for a murder on their patch, something I agree with.

As we know, Halse pushed for a photograph of the Goulston Street wall writing. Now this got me wondering.

We know Mitre Square was sealed off from the time of the murder till noon. We know this was for searches and for Surveyor Foster to complete his drawings and measurements.

My ponder is this, why didnt the City police arrange for Eddowes to be photographed in situ?

They were pushing for a photo in Goulston street in similar lighting. However if lighting was an issue why not hold off till it was light enough?

Just one of those things that get me pondering.

Monty

[KatBradshaw]

Hi Monty.

What was the traffic like in Mitre Square at that time?? I have no idea.
Would it have been possible to seal off the area properly. We do have the excellent scetch of her in situ but I agree that it seems weird that they didn't take the chance to photograph at the scene.
I didn't know that there was ever a piccie of the GSG.. I take it we have never seen it.

[Monty]

Hey Kate,

Halse pushed for a photo but Arnold and Warren thought otherwise and the writing was removed instead of photographed.

Mitre Square was extremely easy to seal of, infact it was. Bobbies would have been posted at the passage entrances and the carriage entrance at Mitre Street junction. There is a sketch, Lloyds I think, showing the sealing off at Mitre Street and Foster, with other authority figures, completing his work.

Monty

[KatBradshaw]

Hmmmmm, was it a respect thing then. That she had been violated enough and they felt that they needed to get her in and covered up.

[Monty]

Well the Met had no qualms with Kelly.

However that maybe so.

Monty

[KatBradshaw]

But Kelly was already inside.

[Monty]

Again, another fair point.

Also there may have been post mortem issues.

Monty

[KatBradshaw]

Indeed.
She was found quickly but in the cooler, although not cold, night rigor would have set in quite quickly.

[Supe]

Neil,

My feeling is that they had not yet realized the forensic value of crime scene photos. The mortuary photos were taken for identification purposes, Goulston Street was not a crime scene per se but there was a desire to record the writing, and I suspect the Miller's Court photos were not, again, to aid with the investigation but rather to record what would otherwise be an unimaginable scene.

As it is, a flash powder photo of Eddowes in situ would have been a piece of cake, but to photograph chalk on glazed brick would have had to wait for daylight.

Don.

[KatBradshaw]

Do we know when taking Crime Scene Photos became standard??

[RJM]

Hi Neil,

I suspect if the City police had a notion to photograph Eddowes in situ they may have had difficulty finding a photographer. Like the Met in 1888, they didn't have a proper photographic department, so they used specific freelance individuals. Their man may not have been available, or perhaps did not posses the flash equipment necessary.

The City did go to a lot of trouble to preserve the scene with Frederick Foster producing a very detailed drawing of Mitre Square and the sketch of Eddowes in situ as well and probably did not call for a photographer.

Hi Kate,

I'm not sure when police departments started photographing victims and crime scenes. It's rare to find such photographs in England or North America prior to 1900. Mary Kelly along with Abby and Andrew Borden are the most famous examples. From about 1895 onward though, Alphonse Bertillon showed the importance of crime-scene photographs as evidence and documentation. This was a step beyond the identification it was used for in the UK. Within a decade, on both sides of the Atlantic, it became common to photograph corpses in situ.

I find it quite astonishing that well into the twentieth century, despite the ease and low cost, many crime scenes were not photographed. Perhaps understandable in rural areas but inexcusable in large, metropolitan centres.

Cheers,

Robert

[Monty]

Hey Rob,

Now the unavailabity of Photographer did cross my mind however if Halse was pushing for one in Goulston Street so its obvious to me that the DC felt one, if not their own, was obtainable.

Equipment could have been an issue. Id be interested to know how many pgotographers lived close by and how available the equipment was, especially in short notice at 2/3 am.

I think you're right, Foster was on scene and its highly possible they felt that his prescence was adaquate. This freed up the body for Brown which enabled him to conduct his investigations swiftly.

And Don, your point may have played a part. They just didnt realsie how useful it could be.

Rob,

Wasnt Kellys crime scene the first to be photographed with the body in situ?

Cheers all

Monty

[Monty]

Hey Rob,

Now the unavailabity of Photographer did cross my mind however if Halse was pushing for one in Goulston Street so its obvious to me that the DC felt one, if not their own, was obtainable.

Equipment could have been an issue. Id be interested to know how many pgotographers lived close by and how available the equipment was, especially in short notice at 2/3 am.

I think you're right, Foster was on scene and its highly possible they felt that his prescence was adaquate. This freed up the body for Brown which enabled him to conduct his investigations swiftly.

And Don, your point may have played a part. They just didnt realsie how useful it could be.

Rob,

Wasnt Kellys crime scene the first to be photographed with the body in situ?

Cheers all

Monty

[Monty]

Hey Rob,

Now the unavailabity of Photographer did cross my mind however if Halse was pushing for one in Goulston Street so its obvious to me that the DC felt one, if not their own, was obtainable.

Equipment could have been an issue. Id be interested to know how many pgotographers lived close by and how available the equipment was, especially in short notice at 2/3 am.

I think you're right, Foster was on scene and its highly possible they felt that his prescence was adaquate. This freed up the body for Brown which enabled him to conduct his investigations swiftly.

And Don, your point may have played a part. They just didnt realsie how useful it could be.

Rob,

Wasnt Kellys crime scene the first to be photographed with the body in situ?

Cheers all

Monty

[belinda]

Indeed.
She was found quickly but in the cooler, although not cold, night rigor would have set in quite quickly.

I think getting her to the Mortuary was probably a prioity ,physical evidence was all they had to go on.

And what Supe said