Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Prosector]

Happy to do so - as I'm a relative newcomer, how do I start a new thread?
Prosector

[Abby Normal]

Happy to do so - as I'm a relative newcomer, how do I start a new thread?
Prosector

Go to the motive, method etc discussion link click on it and in the upper right hand corner click on new thread.

Looking forward to it.

[MidnightIsolde_55]

Hi Isolde

I don't believe that Martha Tabram was JTR's first victim, I believe that Polly Nichols was. All of the canonical victims were first killed by slicing through one or both carotid arteries before being dissected to a greater or lesser degree. As a surgeon I believe that JTR had a great deal of anatomical knowledge and some degree of surgical skill whereas Tabram's killer did not. She did not die until a great number of stab wounds had been inflicted and there seems to have been no real attempt to target a vital structure such as the carotid artery or the heart which does not suggest much anatomical knowledge (assuming he didn't learn it all in the 23 days following her murder). The lethal blow was apparently the one that penetrated her breast bone (sternum) and entered her heart and that was inflicted with a different weapon from the other wounds and one that could have been a soldier's bayonet. Soldiers below the rank of sergeant who were off duty but in uniform were obliged to carry a military issue clasp knife and a bayonet which would fit very well with the two weapons used in her murder.

Prosector

Hi, Prosector

Yes, this is the reason why I cannot fully accept Tabram as a Ripper victim as her murder appears imprecise in comparison to the canonical five. Granted, there were varying amounts of anatomical knowledge reported by the doctors between the c5, but I know that I couldn't have done what was done to them in such a short space of time without it being messy. For that reason, the killer of the c5 must have had some anatomical knowledge at least. Anyway, in regards to Tabram, her murder doesn't show evidence of anatomical knowledge and doesn't appear to show the precision of the later murders. As such, could her killer have transformed weeks later?
However, the possible strangulation and apparent display of the body are JTR hallmarks so she could have been an earlier less refined kill.

I think that accepting Tabram as a first or earlier victim is problematic if you believe that the killer of the c5 was a doctor or someone with anatomical knowledge because her murder doesn't fit that profile. Someone with anatomical knowledge to my mind would kill more efficiently. That said, if she was strangled first, the stabs were perhaps not to kill her but instead to satisfy the murderer's desires in which case they do not reflect an inefficient murder but instead show that her murderer took satisfaction out of inflicting them. On the other hand, the wounds were said to have been inflicted in life so may still demonstrate an ineffective kill, especially with the use of two weapons.
I think Tabram is possible but not certain.

[sdreid]

It looks to me like Tabram was just a grab and stab. Chapman was the first that might have actually required some anatomical knowledge.

[sdreid]

On a similar poll on the other JtR site, Tabram and Nichols rank about the same but Smith is in third and Millwood has no votes.

[sdreid]

Ah, Millwood now has a vote over there tying her with Horsnail.

[DirectorDave]

The location...more than anything that's what edges me towards Martha being one of Jack's....right in the middle.

Although I'm not sure Martha was his first...I think there may have been others not associated with the Whitechapel murders.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that Martha was the first, and possibly because of her, his rage escalated towards Prostitutes
The overkill in George yard, would suggest a rage, and the mutilations that followed with the others, certainly endorse that belief.
Regards Richard.

[sdreid]

I wonder what the consensus would be among Ripper authors.

[Haskins]

Clearly we can't be sure, but I'd say that it was most likely Martha Tabram, notwithstanding the MO differences when compared to the canonical 5.

[Nick Spring]

I think Martha Tabram was first too, location right possibly sexual frenzy in the stabbing.

It appears to me to be a start of what developed later.

cheers

Nick

[Tom_Wescott]

The interesting thing about the 'Canonical Five' is that it was not invented in 1888 with Dr. Bond or in 1894 by Macnaghten as writers say. It was invented in the 1970's and 1980's by modern Ripper writers. Up until the 1960's the general opinion had always been that Tabram was a Ripper victim.

This of course does not mean that she was, but I think it's important to keep in mind that in the last 125 years, she was a canonical victim for most of that time, and even today, roughly 50% to 60% of Ripperologists think she was. It's only because of the discovery of the Mac memoranda in the 60's, followed by the Dr. Bond report in the 80's, that these two seemingly important (at the time, Mac's word was considered final by many) documents created the new gospel of a 'Canonical Five', and that's the only reason so many among us do not consider Tabram a Ripper victim. Having said that, there are good reasons outside of these two reports for us to question that she was.

There's no getting around the fact that the medical evidence in her case is vastly different in many ways from what we see in Nichols and Chapman. Yes, Tabram and Nichols are both knife murders, so there will always be that similarity. But they're about as different as can be. However, if you look to all the evidence OUTSIDE the medical, there's a harmony and suggests connection. So make of that what you will.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nick Spring]

The interesting thing about the 'Canonical Five' is that it was not invented in 1888 with Dr. Bond or in 1894 by Macnaghten as writers say. It was invented in the 1970's and 1980's by modern Ripper writers. Up until the 1960's the general opinion had always been that Tabram was a Ripper victim.

This of course does not mean that she was, but I think it's important to keep in mind that in the last 125 years, she was a canonical victim for most of that time, and even today, roughly 50% to 60% of Ripperologists think she was. It's only because of the discovery of the Mac memoranda in the 60's, followed by the Dr. Bond report in the 80's, that these two seemingly important (at the time, Mac's word was considered final by many) documents created the new gospel of a 'Canonical Five', and that's the only reason so many among us do not consider Tabram a Ripper victim. Having said that, there are good reasons outside of these two reports for us to question that she was.

There's no getting around the fact that the medical evidence in her case is vastly different in many ways from what we see in Nichols and Chapman. Yes, Tabram and Nichols are both knife murders, so there will always be that similarity. But they're about as different as can be. However, if you look to all the evidence OUTSIDE the medical, there's a harmony and suggests connection. So make of that what you will.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

That is a very good point, some of the police involved at the time thought Tabram was connected to the other.

It is Macnaghten who didn't think she was, I wonder why when Abberline and Anderson thought she was connected.

Best

Nick

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nick. Either Mac was swayed by Dr. Bond's report or, more likely, he was trying to squeeze the time frame of the murders into as short a space as possible, in order to excuse the police from failure. Anderson did this too, so in hindsight they could say the killer was only loose for a few short weeks and then, through their great patrolling and whatnot, the murders stopped.

It was also understood at the time that Emma Smith and Tabram were killed by the same man/men. Some investigators, such as Reid and Dew, continued to believe this. Others, namely those not involved in the Smith investigation, dropped her from the tally sometime after 1888.

Incidentally, the murders of Smith and Tabram are as much alike as are those of Nichols and Eddowes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[HelenaWojtczak]

I notice that Martha Tabram is winning the poll hands down, with twice as many votes as the runner up.