Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Harry D]

So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?

[Tom_Wescott]

So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?

That's what I used to think. It didn't seem logical.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

So in the space of a few weeks the Ripper went from a wild stab-happy killer to a calculated slasher?

Well no...
Most serial killers don't start off with a successful kill let alone a mature MO.

I think its more likely in the space of a several months, starting with perhaps, Millwood and/or Wilson, he went from stabbing then to strangling first to incapacitate and stabbing with Tabram then to strangling and slashing with Nichols...and on.

[Abby Normal]

But the signatures aren't the same, Bridewell. Tabram's murder was a frenzied one, as attested to by the repeated stabbings which missed vital organs, whereas the proceeding murders would show a clean dispatch of the victim and a deliberate focus on the abdominal area and viscera. We are therefore left with the conclusion that they were committed by different beasts.

Hi Harry
The sigs were similar enough. Abdomen and private parts targeted with knife.

Signatures evolve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tabram was not a frenzy kill.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Defective Detective]

A quick question for those more studid in the case than I:

There was an unsolved murder before Emma Elizabeth Smith - perhaps as far back as 1887, though I cannot recall the details. This woman was found in a swamp? Or so I seem to remember. She was not mutilated. It seems to me she was actually dating her killer, or that was the impression I took from it; and she was seen with multiple men simultaneously the day of her death. I don't think her killer was ever caught.

Does this ring any bells?

[Abby Normal]

I voted on this poll eons ago. Sadly, I cannot remember who I voted for! If I could re-vote knowing what I know now, I'd likely vote Emily Horsnell, although I'll happily admit that 'I don't know'. Until very recently I thought there was a huge medical divide between Tabram and Nichols, so I accepted Nichols as the first Ripper victim. However, I now believe that the way the killer handled Nichols was actually very similar to what he did to Tabram and the two are therefore connected. Likewise, the medical evidence connects Tabram to Smith, and then Smith back to Horsnell.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi again Tom
Can you please expound on your last sentence?

[Tom_Wescott]

A quick question for those more studid in the case than I:

There was an unsolved murder before Emma Elizabeth Smith - perhaps as far back as 1887, though I cannot recall the details. This woman was found in a swamp? Or so I seem to remember. She was not mutilated. It seems to me she was actually dating her killer, or that was the impression I took from it; and she was seen with multiple men simultaneously the day of her death. I don't think her killer was ever caught.

Does this ring any bells?

Yes, Annie Smith. I believe her first name is Elizabeth, but she went by Annie. I mention it in my book. Dr. Phillips was the coroner and was PISSED at the doctor because he did an autopsy without the coroner's approval. He told Phillips the reason was that the previous coroner allowed doctors the discretion to perform an autopsy if they thought it necessary. Phillips would have none of that and insisted autopsies only be performed at his order. I'm not sure it was a case of murder. They could not determine the cause of death. However, her body was found in a swampy area and there was no logical reason for her to have been walking through such an area.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Just for trivia sake, Annie Chapman's maiden name was Smith.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi again Tom
Can you please expound on your last sentence?

Hi Abscam. I'm afraid that would be a very long post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Defective Detective]

Yes, Annie Smith. That's it.

The reason I bring her up is that - and bear in mind I haven't read your book or any of the details of her case, so I might be getting them wrong - I thought there were some superficial echoes of the Emma Smith attack in her case, namely the (possibly misremembered) sighting of her with a gang of young men immediately before her death.

If we include Emma Smith and suggest the Ripper was among the gang that killed her, I would want to strongly consider Annie Smith as well. I'm agnostic on the possibility of Jack-as-gangster (I've half-jokingly posited the Ripper letters as Black Hand missives if you tilt your head and squint a little), but I wouldn't want to rule it out. And I think if you include Emma, you almost have to at least look at Annie Smith.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Annie Smith. That's it.

The reason I bring her up is that - and bear in mind I haven't read your book or any of the details of her case, so I might be getting them wrong - I thought there were some superficial echoes of the Emma Smith attack in her case, namely the (possibly misremembered) sighting of her with a gang of young men immediately before her death.

If we include Emma Smith and suggest the Ripper was among the gang that killed her, I would want to strongly consider Annie Smith as well. I'm agnostic on the possibility of Jack-as-gangster (I've half-jokingly posited the Ripper letters as Black Hand missives if you tilt your head and squint a little), but I wouldn't want to rule it out. And I think if you include Emma, you almost have to at least look at Annie Smith.

I read a bunch on Annie Smith in the papers of the time. I became both fascinated and confused. it appears she had a drinking problem. Some suggest she might have been poisoned during the evening, which is interesting. At one point a shop owner had to revive her. Then she went back dancing. A bit later, it appeared one of the boys around her stole or attempted to steal her wallet. However, because of her inebriation, she may have stumbled into the marshes and passed out, suffocating in the water. Consider a very similar case recently with the Long Island Serial Killer. A prostitute disappears. While looking for her body they find the graves of like 10 women! When they finally find the missing girl it turns out she wasn't even murdered. She was on drugs, ran out into a marsh, passed out and drown. Remarkable, but true. Having said that, there were a couple suspects in the Annie Smith case and their names should be kept on record. I seem to recall they were rather young though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abscam. I'm afraid that would be a very long post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Well then, hopefully it will it be in your Legrand book ?

Can you at least clue me in on who horsnail was and why she could be a possible ripper victim, or at least point me in the right direction to read about her?

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
The sigs were similar enough. Abdomen and private parts targeted with knife.

Signatures evolve.

Whoever murdered Nichols et al. was confident in his skill with a knife, that much is clear, whereas Tabram's killer was quite the opposite and didn't betray any particular expertise as he wildly stabbed her to death.

It's therefore hard to swallow that he refined his technique to this degree within a matter of weeks with no murders in between; as is the belief that Nichols couldn't have been the Ripper's first kill. He had to start somewhere, after all, and if he was a slaughterer or butcher then he would've already possessed the practical skill he needed, with the signature evolving with each kill but nonetheless still methodical and systematic in its approach. Tabram's murder has little in common with Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes in particular, which is why I believe that any attempt to add her to the "official list" is a tenuous one.

[sdreid]

At least we all agree that it wasn't Fairy Fay.

[Abby Normal]

Whoever murdered Nichols et al. was confident in his skill with a knife, that much is clear, whereas Tabram's killer was quite the opposite and didn't betray any particular expertise as he wildly stabbed her to death.

It's therefore hard to swallow that he refined his technique to this degree within a matter of weeks with no murders in between; as is the belief that Nichols couldn't have been the Ripper's first kill. He had to start somewhere, after all, and if he was a slaughterer or butcher then he would've already possessed the practical skill he needed, with the signature evolving with each kill but nonetheless still methodical and systematic in its approach. Tabram's murder has little in common with Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes in particular, which is why I believe that any attempt to add her to the "official list" is a tenuous one.

Hi Harry
From an earlier post of mine-not sure if you saw it:

Well no...
Most serial killers don't start off with a successful kill let alone a mature MO.

I think its more likely in the space of a several months, starting with perhaps, Millwood and/or Wilson, he went from stabbing then to strangling first to incapacitate and stabbing with Tabram then to strangling and slashing with Nichols...and on.

So spelled out:

Millwood: stabbed, not strangled, did not kill
Tabram: strangled, then stabbed, killed
Polly Nichols: strangled, ripped, killed
etc.

And all three (and subsequent victims)had knife wounds to lower abdomen.

To me a reasonable progression of MO and sig evolving.