Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

[Cap'n Jack]

Welcome to the world, Ally:

Chapman:

'Known as "Dark Annie," she was a 47-year old destitute prostitute who roamed the streets and moved from one common lodging house to the next when she could afford to pay for a room. In the early a.m. hours of September 8, 1888 she was thrown out of her lodging house to earn money for her bed. Her body was found several hours later in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street disemboweled and mutilated. Her uterus and a portion of the flesh surrounding her belly button were taken from the scene by the killer. She had married John Chapman, a coachman, in 1869. The couple had three children but her firstborn died of meningitis and her youngest son was born crippled. Due probably to the stress caused by the misfortunes of their children, the couple took to heavy drinking and separated. They lived apart for four years during which time Annie received an allowance from her husband until his death in 1886. '

[halomanuk]

Hi Pirate,
If an allegation against a ripper author is being made then fair enough..

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Halomanuk

Behind this playground argument is a very serious argument indeed. Serious allegations were made against one of the worlds most respected Ripperologists.

And another Ripper myth was being sold to the greater public. That the victims of Jack the Ripper were ‘bad mothers’.

As has been demonstrated there is NO evidence for this. What these woman had in common were two things. They were Prostitutes and they drank (to various degrees)

What quite clearly has Not been demonstrated is that these women were in any way bad mothers (and lets face it only the children really have the right to reach that conclusion) and that Neal Sheldons reputation as one of the greatest authorities on the Ripper case is still intact.

It’s been an educating evening all round, nearly as good as last night except in less esteemed company.

Pirate

[halomanuk]

This whole forum is getting like a kids playground...

[Ally]

Yeah my stance and attitude that requires looking at the actual facts and not making up fantasies is really not conducive to the fantasy world you want to build, I can completely see that.

I could argue further but it's useless to argue with people who live in total la la land and apparently can construct elaborate fantasies where Annie and Polly didn't abandon their children long before they became prostitutes but it's okay that they abandoned their children because the authorities would have taken them anyway...okay. Yeah. Sure. That's an argument dripping with reason.

Da Horse is Dead and Done.

[Cap'n Jack]

Ally, you talk of 'abandoned' children all the time.
I believe these children would have been removed by the parish authorities because of the parent's behaviour... and the resentment would have been the same, whether they had been abandoned or removed.
You can't resolve family issues with matters of law.
All of the men we discuss here, in close relationship with the victims, would have denied such a close relationship when questioned by the authorities simply because they would have been prosecuted if they admitted that they were living on the immoral earnings of their partners.
This is absolutely crucial to our meagre understanding of the complicated situation.
But I have to say that your stance and attitude here is not helpful to further study.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Tom,

Because there's nothing more entertaining than an idiot crowing his victory when everyone but he is perfectly aware he lost.

But you are right, this is kind of becoming like laughing at the special olympics kids. Bordering on tacky.

Pirate beat the Ally...Pirate Beat the Ally...who wants to grow-up with so many 'Bad Mothers' about

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Ally;89156]Pirate,

You are making a sweeping generalizion about millions of women. I am talking about five women and of these women, everyone who was a mother was a BAD mother. I notice you are completely overlooking the other two mothers in this group Annie and Polly. Want to know why? Because Polly walked out on her family again and again finally abandoning them for good in 81. And Annie dove into the bottle and abandoned her surviving daughter for others to take care of.

Three mothers:

Kate: daughter moves to have nothing to do with her. Sons taken because of her drinking.
Annie: drunk, abandons her children.
Polly: Drunk, abandons her children several times.




How do you know all this,Ally?
Were you there at the time,did you talk with the women themselves -----or are you simply content to take the word of the biased press,or their menfolk who abandoned THEM?

after

------CHEATING on her [Polly"s husband while putting her in the family way with her FIFTH child was busy putting his next door neighbour up the duff at thevery same time as Polly was giving birth.Most women I know would still break under that kind of treatment by their supposed "bread winner"----[as he was then termed],he being the only form of support often available.

------BEATING her black and blue-----incidently its all very well to be sitting in judgement on Kate and her sisters------Kate"s wife beating husband also had a drink problem by some accounts and sounds almost as monstrous as POlly"s horrible cheat of man who was father. to their five children.
By comparison John Kelly sounds like a decent man and seemed so to the coroner too,best of all he was clearly fond of Kate and I believe she found a modicum of support there.

[Ally]

Hi Tom,

Because there's nothing more entertaining than an idiot crowing his victory when everyone but he is perfectly aware he lost.

But you are right, this is kind of becoming like laughing at the special olympics kids. Bordering on tacky.

[Jeff Leahy]

I just saw this. My God, Ally, how are you keeping a straight face in this discussion?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Give up Tom this battle has been won and buried

[c.d.]

Cause you da man, Tom!!!

"If you want to be the man, you got to beat the man." Woooooooo
Nature Boy Ric Flair

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

No Ally we only really know as Fact that Chapman Abandoned her children. And there is no evidence that she was a 'Bad Mother' just that she was a sad alcoholic whose life was destroyed by the booze. We know that she came off the bottle for a few years, and its more than possible that her children loved her very much...most children do, its people like you that point the finger..

I must admit that my practical experience for childrens love for there mothers comes through practical experience in the Hammersmith Nude case.

However you clearly lost this argument by your own criteria, Many thanks for the laughter and enjoyment your collapsed reasoning bought me...

I do so enjoy a little heartless gloating following a minor casebook victory

Bye all

Lov ya Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Unless my maths is out

I just saw this. My God, Ally, how are you keeping a straight face in this discussion?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

apart from the fact that Tom is a D**k Head

2 + 2 = 4.

Would it surprise anyone that Tom has again chosen the losing side?

It might, since I don't recall having done so before. But then, I don't recall having entered a competition, either. And wasn't this argument between you (2) and Ally (2) with the rest of us (4) just offering our tuppence here and there? When did this become about me? Why is that that all the mouthbreathers feel they have to try and build their self-worth by taking me on?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ally]

Your maths are as off as 2 + 2 not equaling four. Out of the women who were mothers with living children so that their motherhood status can actually be judged it's 100% bad mothers.

I realize someone who is confused by the most basic of arithmetic would have a problem with percentages but..100 percent craptastic mothers. 100 percent abandoned or grown children who want nothing to do with them whatsoever.