Victim Conversation (off-topic moved)

Apart from the fact; that they were all committed in close proximity, in a short space of time, in a very similar manor? All the women were prostitutes. They all were murdered with a knife. At least six had slash or Rip wounds. All had had their throats cut or stabbed. All but one (presumed disturbed) had cuts to the lower body. They all happened in sequence of progression…

That’s one big coincidence Mike, but if you and Andrew Cook insist, who am I to argue.

Pirate

I dont know why you decided to put words in my mouth today Pirate, but Ive only said and only will say until proven otherwise that 2 of the Canonical murders seem identical in the manner of victim acquisition...in the phased approach to their defeat and then murder, and in the post mortem activities which in fact is the only reason anyone made the name Jack the RIPPER up in the first place. A 3rd murder looks very similar in most aspects to those first 2 murders,... but the 3rd in the Canonical Group emphatically does not.

I think you should revist the Dutfields Yard murder....there is zero evidence that any interruption took place and testimony from professionals who portray the murder itself as being uncharacteristic of the previous 2.

Polly and Annie were cut when not resisting and lying down. No knife is used until then. Liz may have been choked with her scarf and cut while falling....meaning the killer had the knife out while she was able to resist, and was being choked while standing up,.. with her scarf.

Regards.

[Jeff Leahy]

Apart from the fact; that they were all committed in close proximity, in a short space of time, in a very similar manor? All the women were prostitutes. They all were murdered with a knife. At least six had slash or Rip wounds. All had had their throats cut or stabbed. All but one (presumed disturbed) had cuts to the lower body. They all happened in sequence of progression…

That’s one big coincidence Mike, but if you and Andrew Cook insist, who am I to argue.

Pirate

Far be it from me to suggest that your operating a bizarre double standard here Mike.

But are you suggesting that we need ‘absolute proof’ to condemn a homicidal maniac of murdering these women but it’s perfectly OK to accuse these women of being ‘bad mothers’ with NO proof what so ever?

A group of women whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I just don’t get the logic here, not that I’ve seen you comment on the victims, but you didn’t exactly defend them either.

Pirate

I have no idea where you got the idea that I ever said, thought, or posted that any woman was a bad mother. If I mentioned Motherhood it was to demonstrate some kind of connectivity from one woman to the next as far as middle aged Canonicals and a woman half their age.

Please re-read what you thought I said and see who you should be posting this towards.

I said it is the ones who have figuratively convicted one man for the deaths of the Canonical Five that carry the burden of proof here.....because not only are they not solved, they are not linked to one another with anything but guesswork.

Regards.

[Jeff Leahy]

I appreciate your position Chris, and yes, the emphasis Caz uses about any post I make is inflammatory and a source of aggravation personally...but I think the error she makes is in suggesting my exclusion desires about any Ripper victim needs to have definitive proof attached....which is the exact opposite approach used in prosecutions, whereby the accused is assumed innocent until proven otherwise. In this case, despite the lack of evidence or any reasonably repetitive streak, an unknown man is guilty of 5 murders. And I'm just to respect and accept that remark?

The burden of proof here isnt on the people who would like to dispel the idea of value of any mythical Rippers list based solely on opinion not evidence....its on the people who stand with conviction and claim that Jack the Ripper killed this woman,...or that woman, or both those women.

I suggest proving one individual guilty or reasonably suspected based on incriminating evidence would substantiate Caz's position, and I for one look forward to reviewing that data should it ever come to light.

But unsolved murders are not suddenly solved by support for opinions, and the murders of 5 women were not linked by evidence to one man.

Best regards.

Far be it from me to suggest that your operating a bizarre double standard here Mike.

But are you suggesting that we need ‘absolute proof’ to condemn a homicidal maniac of murdering these women but it’s perfectly OK to accuse these women of being ‘bad mothers’ with NO proof what so ever?

A group of women whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I just don’t get the logic here, not that I’ve seen you comment on the victims, but you didn’t exactly defend them either.

Pirate

[Mr Chumley]

Ahoy Cap'n, sorry for the delay..I think Black Stone cherry put it more aptly than Procul Harem
You can't judge a book looking at its cover
You can't love someone messing with another
you can't win a war fighting with your brother
you wanna have peace gotta love one another

yo ho ho and a bottle of Rum

I appreciate your position Chris, and yes, the emphasis Caz uses about any post I make is inflammatory and a source of aggravation personally...but I think the error she makes is in suggesting my exclusion desires about any Ripper victim needs to have definitive proof attached....which is the exact opposite approach used in prosecutions, whereby the accused is assumed innocent until proven otherwise. In this case, despite the lack of evidence or any reasonably repetitive streak, an unknown man is guilty of 5 murders. And I'm just to respect and accept that remark?

The burden of proof here isnt on the people who would like to dispel the idea of value of any mythical Rippers list based solely on opinion not evidence....its on the people who stand with conviction and claim that Jack the Ripper killed this woman,...or that woman, or both those women.

I suggest proving one individual guilty or reasonably suspected based on incriminating evidence would substantiate Caz's position, and I for one look forward to reviewing that data should it ever come to light.

But unsolved murders are not suddenly solved by support for opinions, and the murders of 5 women were not linked by evidence to one man.

Best regards.

[Cap'n Jack]

Ah Mr Chumley... shades of grey is it now?
Are you quite sure, sir, that you do not mean a whiter shade of pale?

'And so it was that later
as the miller told his tale
that her face, at first just ghostly,
turned a whiter shade of pale

She said, 'There is no reason
and the truth is plain to see.'

[Mr Chumley]

Shades of Grey

I am not sure what the benefit has been, in what started, as debating the various collective emotional responses to these individual's demise.

Humans have a propensity for wishing to categorise and pigeon hole.

Reaction is atypified by
(a) a sense of sympathy or assumed empathy, for what ever reason with a scenario. It would appear from some of the comments that some individuals seek to understand or even profess to have an understanding of living in another period of history, or even country.
(b) an apathetic generallity, "so what", "what ever","never heard of them","not in my backyard-not interested"
(c) a moralising anti position such as "they had it coming", "they were scum"

Whether one falls in any of the categories, does not seem to be a reason for maintaining a "one upmanship" debate on semantics of use of subjects ranging from literal understanding of an adverb to individuals right to an opinion based on their on morality.

It has on occasion painted a colourful picture of some of the lower classes, but does nothing to change the fact that these women, regardless of their social standing and abilities of not being " a good mother", had the unforunate luck to choose a punter/client who had another agenda all together.

[Jeff Leahy]

Pretty much all Ripper books by American authors are crap. Essays are a different matter, of course. You have myself, Dan Norder, me, Don Souden, I, Andy Spallek, and of course...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Who's your American Ripperological hero?

I am clearly a massive fan of Don and i met Andy a few weeks ago and I am also a big fan and admirer..

but the book?

Must dash. Good night all

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

There might be some truth in that if it wasnt for the fact that most of my favourite Ripperologists are American, and the only Ripperologist I would call a hero is also American.

Pretty much all Ripper books by American authors are crap. Essays are a different matter, of course. You have myself, Dan Norder, me, Don Souden, I, Andy Spallek, and of course...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Who's your American Ripperological hero?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hoist the Jolly Roger!!

Seaman Stains? Roger the cabin boy!

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, a lesson in reality for you, Nobody hates nobody. It is a discussion board where fair views are exchanged for short change.
SPE is a fair and good man but he has little demons like you rubbing his ego, and he uses you like a rabid dog at a safe garden gate where the only person likely to come by is the local vicar, and he is going to be gay, so you are going to be upset anyway.
I think I know what you want.
William Cody in striped stockings and his pistol in is hand.

[Natalie Severn]

So the daughter is so selfish she MOVES several times to avoid her mother? Generally people who are that selfish have no problem just saying no.



Ally, it sounds to me like she was a bit of a brat quite frankly.She was glad enough to ask her mother to assist with the childbirth when she needed her,and when she didnt need or want to be bothered,mother could f off.



I don't know Nats, where are the facts that he had an affair? The police reports show the drunken binges.

If thats so Ally,I would like a more specific reference for these reports,so I can read what they say.Who and when----gave the information to the police about the drunken binges?

[Sam Flynn]

You can ride on my boat anytime big boy It is the nature of Pirates to be camp

Hoist the Jolly Roger!!

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate is superficial. AP Wolf and Paul Begg are nice to him, and they've published books, so they're rock stars in his eyes and can do no wrong.

No they simply seem to know what they are talking about

To love AP and Paul is to hate SPE. I don't know why that is, but it seems to be the case, through no fault of SPE's.

Actually I am a great admirer of SPE's, he is a gentleman.

I simply do not agree with his, or Norma's views on Anderson, personally I like them both very much.

Ally and I are Americans, and Pirate hates Americans.

There might be some truth in that if it wasnt for the fact that most of my favourite Ripperologists are American, and the only Ripperologist I would call a hero is also American.

He however most emphatically DOES NOT hate homosexuals, having from time to time found solace in their sweet, manly embrace. He's really not all that hard to figure out, except for how he can call himself a journalist when he writes and reads at the level of a first grader. Yours truly, Tom Wescott

You can ride on my boat anytime big boy It is the nature of Pirates to be camp

Pirate

PS Sceptic Blue is also an American and he is cool even if he talks **** about the marginalia