The "Canonical Group" defines the Ripper...but accurately?

[smezenen]

JTR was deflecting future investigations re CV4 away from the scene for very good and logical reasons-too close to the lair!
Also on the way to MAK's.Not home.Would have made a "triple".

Dave,
Are you saying the lair is close to Eddows murder sight or close to the grafity site?

The possibility of the "triple" is something i have thought about before. I dont know if anyone else has covered the subject but looking at the map the apron is found in almost a direct line from Eddows to Kelly. If you could prove that Jack intended to do the triple you would be also be closer to proving one of the conspiracy or the blackmail theorys I think.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Dave,
Are you saying the lair is close to Eddows murder sight or close to the grafity site?

The possibility of the "triple" is something i have thought about before. I dont know if anyone else has covered the subject but looking at the map the apron is found in almost a direct line from Eddows to Kelly. If you could prove that Jack intended to do the triple you would be also be closer to proving one of the conspiracy or the blackmail theorys I think.

Getting warm.
Didn't intend.He actually panicked,at first.Well,after CV3 and confronted with CV4-who wouldn't.

[Mitch Rowe]

The problem with the C5 is not how many they are, but the canon in itself. No unsolved criminal case this old should have any canon at all. You can't have a canon in a 120 year old murder case with so much missing information and where the killer is unidentified.
We can argue until kinfdom come how many victims that should be included in the canon, but that is not the issue. The issue is that each and everyone of the murders should be evaluated independently and not with any canon in mind.

As for Macnaghten - since you refer to him in connection with the C5 - yes, the same Macnaghten whose memoranda is littered with errors and strange conclusions. The same Macnaghten who called Druitt a 'doctor' and who points out Ostrog as one of the main suspects; the same Ostrog who possibly wasn't even in England during the Ripper murders and whom there is no shred of evidence that he ever was even violent.
You've got to be joking. Macnaghten has to be one of the worst 'expert' references to quote.

As for us being 'cold case' detectives: the opinion that the police knew better than us because they 'were there' has to be one of the most erronous statements one can make. It makes no difference if they were there and had access to all the infiormation if they were inexperienced in handling these types of cases and didn't know how to accurately analyse the information they had.
let's remember that cold case investigatorts generally are more succesful in solving and analysing old cases than the police who did the original investigation. That is why there is such a thing as cold cases in the first place.

All the best

And dont worry Glenn. I have done that. Before I even bothered too read the MM. I know you arent too keen on the C5 thing and thats your right but the fact is a list was made and if I were to make a list I would say the C5 were the ones I was 99% or more sure of.

Perhaps you arent understanding what I am saying I believe about the MM.
Now please read carefully:
It seems like the result of analyzing the crimes years later from some kind of casebook. Probably summaries of the case by chief inspectors or something.

And heres something else I believe:
They didnt know who the ripper was.

So..What results is the MM. Where we have logical conclusions as to who JTRs victims were but crappy suspect choices.

And ya wanna know what else I believe??
They all knew the "suspects" were crappy!
Thats why they didnt have the right info. They were just names that popped up over the years based on popular theories as to why the Ripper stopped. They tried to find some kind of proof or info on them but whatever methods if any were used werent any good. Abberline also gets it wrong about druitt. Macnaghten actually refers to Kosminski as a strong 'suspect'.

This shows me Kosminski wasnt even considered a proper suspect.

[Mitch Rowe]

I think I know what this means now:
A report was made to the Home Office about the matter, but that it was 'considered final and conclusive' is going altogether beyond the truth. Seeing that the same kind of murders began in America afterwards, there is much more reason to think the man emigrated. Then again, the fact that several months after December, 1888, when the student's body was found, the detectives were told still to hold themselves in readiness for further investigations seems to point to the conclusion that Scotland Yard did not in any way consider the evidence as final.

In dec 1888 they thought they finally had a suspect in Druitt. But they werent sure and thought the Ripper may very well strike again. So they told detectives to stand by because they had intended to investigate Druitt further if no more Ripper murders occured. But for some reason Druitts importance as a "suspect' fell radically in those coming several months.

[smezenen]

Good point Mitch. I dont think Jack did himself in. He moved or got caught for something else but his mind didnt just snap and cause him to commit suicide. I think the police figured the same and Druitt fell off the list.

[perrymason]

Thanks for all the comments people, its a difficult issue...this notion of challenging conventions.

I agree with you Mitch, we have no idea who Jack was, which makes a very sound basis for us to not jump to any conclusions about what murders he may have committed, how he would commit them or what he would do during them. Thats precisely my point here.

If you look at all the unsolved murders from Spring 1888 to early summer, 1889, there are 4 murders within the 12-13 attack/murders that are unsolved for that time period that are almost identical in how they likely began, how the victims are "convinced" to lie on cobblestones, how their throats are cut and what postmortem activities then take place. It seems with those 4 murders that someone or some people had some specific ideas on how they wanted to carry out the acts, and what they wanted to do.

Polly-Annie-Kate-Alice

If you like to use C5 founder opinion, you can rule out Alice because Bond suggests the skill or knowledge shown by the killer of Alice is less than that shown with the murders of The Canonical Group. Less than a year earlier he discounted the killer of the Canonicals said knowledge and skill...the opinions of some of his peers.

In real terms, Liz Stride could be a Ripper victim...but ONLY if her killer was interrupted,... because I dont believe a witness testified empty yard and an Unfortunate alone with Jack would reasonably conclude with a single artery severing neck wound only.....and Blackwells time estimates suggest that Liz Strides throat may have been cut as early as a minute after Liz's altercation with Broadshouldered Man at 12:45am, ... there is no reason to suggest that he would wait until he hears horse hoofs and cart wooden wheels to escalate their disagreement and make a quick single cut....perhaps, and only hinted at in this murder, while the victim was falling.

Diemshutz approaching sounds could be heard from some distance, so the person in the yard with Liz... assuming they havent already left by 5 or 10 to 1, decides to cut Liz with the sound of a cart and horse in the distance on the road....getting louder. Thats Jack to some people?

Why would anyone assume that a man who would do that has anything in common with a man that when presented with an Unfortunate and a dark space alone with a woman some 40 minutes later, he performs a murder, semi guts the victim and severs the colon, organ theft...a kidney extraction through her front, mutilates the face and cuts and rips the victims apron and leaves the scene within 8 minutes?

The killer of Liz Stride could have conceivably had 14 minutes alone with Liz, Schwartz was gone and Broadshouldered Man could have left immediately. And the Senior medical opinion on-site said that the cut took place around 20 minutes earlier, but no later than a 1/2 hour before his arrival at 1:16...so from 12:46 to 12:56.

Diemshutz could be heard approaching by 12:56, and enters the yard at 1. Where does Jack go if he just decided to kill her and spilt. He cant walk out the gates...Goldstein is walking by at 12:55-56 and Diemshutz is facing the street in front of the gate as he approaches. So he slips by Diemshutz and the horse and cart unseen? Waits in the yard until Diemshutz runs inside? Where is there any indication this killer was ever on-site when people approached?

Those facts seem to suggest a cut that takes place before 12:56, a killer that immediately leaves, and a man who had zero interest in cutting bodies after he kills them.


Best regards all

[Mr.Hyde]

Mitch Rowe.
Agreed.Crappy suspects.
OMG look at it.Pulling barely viable rabbits,at best, out of hats.Wideawakes or Billycocks.
Consider the legal criteria for a murder.
CVs,victims- real suspects required,not CSs.
I could make a case for Sir John Williams that would make a great script for "Ripping Yarns" should Michael Palin and Terry Jones ever resurrect the series.
Oddly he vastly outranks all listed CSs.
Not my man though.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Good point Mitch. I dont think Jack did himself in. He moved or got caught for something else but his mind didnt just snap and cause him to commit suicide. I think the police figured the same and Druitt fell off the list.

JTR died 1891.Pneumonia-common consequence of Alzheimers.
Time line fits-ill since 1881/2.

[perrymason]

I always thought that as a Suicide Suspect....which is all Druitt is, (a man suspected by innuendo of killing himself out of Ripper guilt)...the young man who worked in Poplar, was despondent all that Fall, and in his Dads Marine Supply Store he cuts his own throat in front of his father on the day Mary is buried, was at least a guy who showed remorse on a day that was significant to the victim. He even lived near Liz when she had the Coffee shop out that way.

I dont believe that there is a single "suspect" that warrants the term. There are people of suspicion though.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

lets face it, all the suspects are crap and the police were crap too ..... i mean a Royal Conspiracy?........this is the biggest load of crap i've ever read in all my life, the Royalty probably never even visited the East End or even spoke to a poor person; anyone who believes this theory, just doesn't know what the British upper classes were like back then....the class structure etc...it was utterly polarised/ total discrimination.... good grief, the East End/prositutes were regarded by the upper classes as scum, total Virmin...they absolutely shunned them!

these suspects plus the likes of Druitt/maybrick aren't even worth studying, they're total rubbish suspects....it's clutching at straws only......these 2 suspects are too much ``middle class``....not a hope in hell.

if you worked for Lord Muck or the Duke whatever, as a servant back then; you could be sacked for even talking to him, or even looking at him, and a servant was far more respectable than a ``east end prostitute``.... the upper classes would never go anywhere near the East End .... it's just the way it was back then, they only mixed with their own types, they knew nothing of poverty .

UNDERCLASS....LOWER CLASS........MIDDLE CLASS........UPPER CLASS.

they never mixed and they dont today either...........fact!

the suspcts here on this forum........shouldn't even be here, Lewis Carol?..........forget it..... Maybrick?......forget it............Jill the Ripper?.............forget it

rant over!

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

If I understand your argument correctly, Liz's killer could not have been Jack because either:

she was killed within a minute or two after Schwartz saw the BS man throw her to the ground and therefore there was no time for Jack to come on to the scene; or

Jack had 14 minutes alone with her but did not mutilate her which is very un-Jack like.

It seems like those two propositions cover all the bases.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I agree with Glenn. Each of the murders should be evaluated independently. The notion of a canon restricts our thinking.

I also believe that any serious re-evaluation of the Whitechapel Murders requires us to stop buying into the concept of "Jack the Ripper" who never existed other than as a name on a letter and postcard. This means we have to stop trying to make him flesh and blood by holding pointless debates about what he ate, where he lived, whether he had an unhappy childhood and who he would have voted for on American Idol. We also have to stop trying to retro-fit this non-existent person with various psychological motives and reasons gleaned from studies of more modern murderers. It's all counter-productive and about as big a waste of time as trying to profile the bogeyman.

Regards,

Simon

[Cap'n Jack]

That's a Brave New World you describe there, Simon, but I'm 100% behind your thinking.

[Malcolm X]

the Ripper is somebody we dont know, he is not one of our top suspects

[Simon Wood]

Hi Malcolm X,

Could you please explain your last post. I honestly don't get it.

Regards,

Simon