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Originally posted by c.d.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Of course, this presupposes that BS Man was not Jack. Or that Pipeman (already on the scene) was not Jack. Or both. With all this conclusion jumping, we should be talking about Spring-heeled Jack!
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott -
Hi Tom,
As my chihuahua would say, "I'm all ears."
Regards,
SimonNever believe anything until it has been officially denied.Comment
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Hi Tom,
Well I thought that assumption was clear from my post. If I tried to cover every possibililty and every scenario it would be a hell of a long post and not fair to those on the board with short attention spans.
c.d.Comment
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I have evaluated them independently and I feel if the goal was to list JTRs potential victims with the most accuracy while still not knowing who he was then the C5 is the best answer. But the C5 wasnt created by me. In fact it wasnt created by any "Ripperologist".Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
And you are right:The notion of a canon restricts our thinking.
Im saying MacNaghten knew that before he made the decision to go ahead anyway. There was nothing in any of the files to cause any doubts about who it was that killed the C5.
I think that I am able to see patterns in the murders. I think that these patterns can tell me something. I dont expect them to tell me much.Comment
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Thats close....what Im saying is that if Liz Stride was killed within a minute or two of her altercation....based on as Tom says correctly, that Broadshouldered Man walking down the street instead of on the sidewalk where Liz is pulled from isnt Jack, and the man called Pipeman who left with Schwartz at 12:45-46, doesnt come back and wasnt Jack himself, ...then its likely she was still in the company of Broadshouldered Man at the time.Originally posted by c.d. View Post
If Broadshouldered man decides to leave right behind Schwartz, then using Club statements, Liz would be alone at the gates outside an empty yard at 12:46ish. Diemshutz and the pony and cart would be heard when they turned onto Berner....so you have Liz alone at 12:46 and Jack the Ripper arriving and cutting her throat just before 1.. when he could hear and see a cart and driver approaching?
The interruption theory needs not only to address a single wound...the only Canonical as such, perhaps cut while falling....likely the only Canonical as such, undisturbed clothing...the only Canonical as such, victim on her side...the only Canonical as such,.... but also validate a perspective that from what we know of Jack the Ripper based on Polly and Annie, he was likely to kill a woman when its clear that he could be caught doing so by someone approaching or seen leaving immediately afterwards.
Tom comments on yours show that even some of the people who rationally cant swallow this is a sound investigative move placing Liz among a specific select type of killers list, will still leave the door open for Liz by Jack...he even suggested a man that a witness says left the scene as part of that conceptualizing.
Liz was seen in an altercation with a drunk at 12:45am..she has her throat cut a few yards away between 12:46 and 12:56 deduced by the Senior Medical man on-site at 1:16.
Its blatantly obvious that the man that killed Polly and Annie didnt stagger in the street drunk in front of witnesses as he picked up them, so BSM is hardly a fit for the type.....and the only person at that site aside from Liz that we have sound reason for suspecting was still there as Schwartz disappeared, is BSM. The street is empty... the yard is empty and a drunk and a woman he assaulted in front of witnesses are the only 2 people known to be there as the earliest time of her cut passes.
Forgive me....but after making a case for the lack of case regarding Liz for some years now, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone of sound mind would prefer to believe a phantom killer known specifically for the postmortem acts that separate his crimes from most all others sneaks in and out to cut once, to the facts as they exist.
I can understand why they added her, Kate was killed on the same night.....the only connection these murders have aside from them both being Unfortunates, and they were either up the creek, or intentionally misleading the public and press...they had no clues to anyone, anything or any cause......so they had at some point to have a single killer run a few victim tally....having some 13 unsolved attacks/murders during that period and therefore 13 potential killers makes for bad press. A multiple killer was practical PR for them, even without evidence to back it up.
I can see justifications for leaving the door open on her as an outside rare possibility.....but being assigned #3 in the Canonical Group is a ludicrous interpretation of the known data here.
Best regards all.Last edited by Guest; 03-27-2009, 03:45 AM.Comment
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Lots of times I wish I could have an editor....probably most of you too....
You want Jack as Liz's killer? Then make a case for BSM, cause like Blotchy on November 9th.....until we know he had "left the building", he is in play as Suspect #1.
CheersComment
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New Improved List
OK, Michael, you have your list, I have mine. I call it Jack the Ripper's DO NOT DO LIST.
(1) Do not kill with anything except a knife. Like sticking an object up a victim's private parts. Don't do that!
(2) Don't stab only. Not acceptable.
(3) Don't just slit someone's throat and leave them to die in a dark alley. (10 demerits for that one)
(4) Don't kill a pretty woman indoors on a holiday. People will talk.
(5) Don't go out by the docks and and strangle someone. Stay away from water.
(6) Don't kill but do a wimpy job of mutilating. No wimping out!
(7) Don't even think about stuffing a torso under the railroad. Return the shopping cart to the store now.
Roy
Sink the BismarkComment
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Bout time someone lightened this up. Thanks Roy...I liked the choices.Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
The reality is that what Im trying to recommend is that we construct lists based on evidence that is overtly similar. Thats a core...a base for any additional murders to be placed on.
For me in the Ripper series, Id start with Polly and Annie by one man, asterix Kate, ...look for some way to identify BSM.. through the Club is my bet, and accept at this point he is the last known man onsite with Liz and her likely killer, and investigate the possibility that Mary Kellys murder may have appeared as a Ripper crime but have been committed by someone close to her with emotions that spawned the activity we would find consistent with the Rippers. Facial slashes, biological material placed about. In Marys case, that may have only happened that one time with her killer. To commit a violent bloody act in that period of time and not try and make it look like Jack would have been under use of an obvious ruse available.
Thats my personal take. 2, maybe 3....1 unrelated, 1 possibly Ripper, or possibly related to relationship with someone close who felt aggrieved and violent. In Marys case, we have 2 ex lovers that see her....the implication is that if they continue to see a woman they lived with and loved even after their parting, they may still entertain ideas of a reunion someday. One of them will be certified Insane soon after the series.
Sometimes an obvious motive ....like a bully drunk feeling slighted by a whore, or a man who has mental issues exploding in violence on an ex lover for rejecting him, ...are also logical ones.
Cheers mateLast edited by Guest; 03-27-2009, 04:23 AM.Comment
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I dont quite understand what you are saying but if you saying anyone needs to prove something in order to include Stride in the C5 then I think you have that backwards. MacNaghten laid the groundwork. He had no reason to lie that we know of and their is no evidence he was leading a campaign of disinformation.Originally posted by perrymason View Post
There is no need to prove he was right. But there is definitely a need to prove he was wrong.Comment
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No more than we need to prove that Bond was wrong about including McKenzie, or that Abberline, Anderson and Reid were wrong for including Tabram. I don't believe Macnaghten laid any more "groundwork" than the other senior officials and investigators who arrived at different opinions.But there is definitely a need to prove he was wrong.Comment
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taking a very close look at the throat mutilations on all the Ripper's victims, Stride's is by far the most shallow and slight.... the other victims almost lost their heads...
did the Ripper start with a slight cut and then after death, try to decapitate by using the original cut as a knife guide....if so, the Ripper must have been disturbed at Stride's murder, soon after he inflicted the first minor cut..... if this is not so, then Stride is not a Ripper victim!
Stride was lieing down on her side as if placed gently there, knees drawn up as if in sleep/ clothing not interfeared with... no sign of a struggle, but knotted scalf pulled tight and over to one side.... my guess is, she was strangled very quickly while standing up using the scalf, gently laid down and then had her throat quickly cut.....or forced to the ground via her scalf and cut at the same time, then he heard the cart....but if not this is not a ripper victim.Last edited by Malcolm X; 03-27-2009, 04:51 AM.Comment
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Thankfully Diemschutz was kind enough to provide an explanation. Not to mention Strides Body was still warm!!Originally posted by Malcolm X View PostLast edited by Mitch Rowe; 03-27-2009, 04:44 AM.Comment
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body would take some time to cool down..... and Diem'z saw nothing, the Ripper would only have just managed to escape the yard, or he could've been hiding in there when he came in!Originally posted by Mitch Rowe View Post
the cart would have come along about a minute after she was fatally cut, but not 5 mins etc... or you'd see her head almost severed and the start of body mutilations....so the timing is very tight indeed.
she was also not cut whilst the ripper heard the cart... because if so, LIZ would've still been alive as Diem came into the yard, for this murder to be the ripper's; he heard the cart whilst he was waiting for her to die and poor liz was close to death.
if not, this is not a ripper murder......my guess is, he was still in the yard or had only just managed to escape!Last edited by Malcolm X; 03-27-2009, 05:26 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by Mitch Rowe View Post
Mitch,
The simple truth is that whether or not people at the time thought she should be included as a Ripper, based on what we can see, that was not opinion based on physical or circumstantial evidence that would naturally lend itself to that conclusion. It was based on a belief a serial killer had started recently and had also killed later that same night. It was a belief that the reason we see the appearance of more severe collateral damage in his PM mutilations on Kate was due to a frustrated attempt earlier. She was included because people suspected the killer was halted.
Your response is why I created the thread....your knee jerk reaction was to support supposition that Liz Stride belongs in that group based on legitimate evidence. The truth is there is no such evidence that links her death to any person. There never was.
Contemporary Investigators grasping at straws is understandable,... modern day amateur sleuths have no need to. There is no urgency and looming threat to contend with here, no Public Relations nightmare,...no mounting death toll without answers, hes long dead and buried whoever he was.
Objectively, there is no evidence that suggests the person who killed Liz Stride killed any other people. We do not see other murderer trademarks here, nor do we see very similar murders to this one, with what may well be a slit across the throat while she fell.
Subjectively, theres as many as 14 minutes available for Jack to come and go in. But that doesnt address the single cut, does it?
Best regardsComment
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