Alleged photo of one of the victims found at Clapham

[Nino]

"Whosoever finds these photos, please take care of them, as the cabinet is one of the murdered women in Whitechapel, and the others her sister. The victim I kissed 20 times, and tried it on again, but I got no brass, so she told me to kiss her and to a dreadful end she came on the eve of her death."

It reminds me of the "clerk" seen kissing and hugging Liz Stride at Bricklayer's Arms before, and in and out of Berner st then.
I don't explain the photos about "her sister" (perhaps a reference to MrsMalcolm statement but at 21th oct already that mistake was cleared - if someone had yet continued to read newspapers).
"Brass" sound like "money": maybe he got no money after offering her the date (paying at pub, buying redrose/maidenfern and a grapestalk also, according to Packer) and finally he got angry that he was missing the mark..
this doesn't go together with Schwartz deposition, so let's take a step back.
Aftermath midnight he (the clerk) had no brass anymore, nonetheless they had tried to closet (according to Packer) but it was in vain. They're talkin quietly when a broadshoulders man is approching...

Does it work?

[Canopy]

I am not saying otherwise belinda - just not likely. I'm very open to ideas as NONE of us know what really happened...I just don't think it likely. They MAY have kept photographs from "better times" for all I know but, don't think it likely. I'm not saying anybody is "wrong" as no way I could do that in not knowing myself - I'm just working on probability.

All the best,

C.

Edit to add: To be honest, I'd love to know if the photographs left were of dead/alive people...

[belinda]

They were not unfortunate all their lives. It is possible that Polly,Lis or Kate could have had a similar kind of photograph to Annies taken at some point.
If Mary Jane did work in the West End her "employers" could have paid for a photograph of her too

[Canopy]

Hello Jeff!

As for the Victims and photographs - forgetting the morgue or death scene pictures, we know that Annie Chapman had photo taken (it is seen on this website). So did Carrie Brown in America. Why couldn't the others - and why could any of them not carry it and photos of a sister around with them (where else to put them, as they are too poor to store them anywhere).

The "others" could - but not likely given their state of living. Getting photographs back then was quite a cost (and I would bet my hat any photographs of Annie weren't paid for by her!) To my knowledge, most photographs taken of the poor as a portrait were those taken once a loved one had died (hence the image shows a "sleeping" (DEAD!!!) person). The family would "pool" their money to purchase it...Interestingly, they too are called "cabinet photographs"...They WOULD then go "prop-up the dead person's image" within a glass-door cabinet/or similar...

I don't buy any unfortunate having money to get/carry in their pocket photographs - either of themselves or otherwise...nope.

All the best,

C.

[Mayerling]

My guess is that it was slang for money to pay for the sex. Unfortunately the message with the photos is garbled - it is subject to too many interpretations (hey, for a moment I thought that I was seeing a Ripper who played a trumpet or trombone or tuba when out on the prowl - you know, from the "brass section" of the orchestra). But since the message is garbled, and was found with the photos at Clapham Juncton (one day the site of another mysterious killing - that of Leon Beron in 1911), maybe these points should be considered too.

1) The killer is somehow able to dump material miles from the East End near Clapham. Did he live near there, or was he visiting someone near there.
2) The killer garbled his instrution message - suggesting he did not have real leisure time to give it to the public when he wrote it to put with the photographs.

As for the Victims and photographs - forgetting the morgue or death scene pictures, we know that Annie Chapman had photo taken (it is seen on this website). So did Carrie Brown in America. Why couldn't the others - and why could any of them not carry it and photos of a sister around with them (where else to put them, as they are too poor to store them anywhere).

Jeff

[Mitch Rowe]

I think it means he had been her customer 20 times. But one night he had no money but solicited her again. She agreed and he thought she liked him and would say nothing when he had no money to pay. However when she found out he had no money she put up a fuss so he realized she was nothing but trash so he had to kill her.

[Canopy]

I am wondering whether any unfortunate would be able to afford to go and have a cabinet photograph made of themselves...a cabinet photograph or any other for that matter. Then there is the question of how the person that left the photographs came to acquire them...

I wonder whether the person that left these photographs not only knew the victim, but possibly had known them for some time ("The victim I kissed 20 times" - is this literal or just hinting at "many" times?) I also wonder whether the person in question was the photographer to have both a photograph of the victim and of her sister too??? - Would explain how he had them in his care?

I also question the words "but I got no brass" - not "but I didn't have any brass" (as in the past - the remainder of the message is written in the past tense). This possibly suggests that the person is implying that, though they were attracted to each other, he was too poor for her rather than making reference to a particular "sexual deal".

He "tried it on again" - getting aroused or "trying his luck" in possibly asking her to be with him? But either way it didn't work out and, if you go with the latter suggestion for a moment, she came "to a dreadful end" on the eve of her death - before she died. Could the person be feeling guilty as, should he have convinced the victim to stay with him, her "end" wouldn't have happened - is the "eve" thing his regret and false blame?

I'm throwing ideas that haven't yet been suggested, this does not mean that I read "Mills and Boon" and believe the above!

C.

[Trevor Marriott]

Brass another term for money

[nicole]

Hi all,

I've been seriously out of the JTR loop in recent times and I was just scanning the message boards and stumbled on the article of the Clapham photos.

The victim I kissed 20 times, and tried it on again, but I got no brass

My grandfather used to use the term 'got no brass' usually watching soccer. If someone didn't 'have the nerve' to fully commit to a tackle (or if someone lost their nerve taking a penalty shot and missed), my grandfather would have chuckled "He's got no brass".

I just called my father and he says the term is related to the saying 'its cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey'. Got no brass = got no balls (testicles) = Got no nerve/courage. I found this definition that supports the idea that brass (balls) refers to nerve/courage.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brass%20balls

Nicole

[Supe]

AP,

No, indeed, a "cabinet" photograph refers only to size, not number. A cabinet photograph is 3-7/8 by 5-1/2 inches, intermediate in size between a carte de visite and a boudoir.

That is was simply a size is readily apparent from this exchage in Conan Doyle's "A Scandal in Bohemia:"

Holmes took a note of it. "One other question," said he, "was the photgraph a cabinet?"
"It was."

Singular usage all round.

Don/.

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris, I thought the meaning of 'cabinet' in this photographic sense was that it was a series of portraits of the same person?

[KatBradshaw]

[QUOTE=Dr. John Watson;43280]Greetings, mates! Here in the U.S., "brass" can also mean audacious, bold or daring, as in, "That guy has a lot of brass!" QUOTE]

It means the same here infact I heard it on 'Eastenders' recently.

I would have agreed that the phrase means money. 'Brass' means a lot of things but in the conext of the quote I would go for money!

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but Christmas Eve is regarded as the entire day of the 24th starting at 12:01 AM and running through 11:59 PM. Maybe that's an American thing I don't know.

Probably a comparatively modern distortion, Stan, in the UK as well as the USA. "Eve" is obviously cognate with "evening", as in "O Star of Eve" - the usual translation of Wagner's "O du mein holder Abendstern" (where "Abendstern" means literally the "evening star").

In Welsh, we refer to Christmas Eve as "Noswyl Nadolig" (the "Feast of Christmas Night/Evening"), and New Year's Eve as "Nos Galan" (the "Evening of New Year"). Incidentally, the well-known Christmas carol "Deck the Halls with Boughs of Holly" was originally an 18th century Welsh song called "Nos Galan".

[Dr. John Watson]

Greetings, mates! Here in the U.S., "brass" can also mean audacious, bold or daring, as in, "That guy has a lot of brass!" I don't think our letter writer had that meaning in mind, however. And it may be a mistake to take his words too literally. For instance, there's no indication he gave the victim the "20 kisses" on a single occasion. He may have known her for some time and gave her a kiss every time he saw her. Perhaps he was seeing the victim's sister, which could explain why he had more pictures of her. He may have seen the victim on the last day of her life, or within a few days of that event, and used the word "eve" in a figurative sense. The inference is clear, however, that the letter writer had tried to get something going with the victim and been turned down, apparently because he lacked either the money or the nerve. On the other hand, the whole thing could be a hoax! Still, I'm hoping someone will follow up and get to the bottom of it. I'd love to see the photos!

[sdreid]

Yes, but Christmas Eve is regarded as the entire day of the 24th starting at 12:01 AM and running through 11:59 PM. Maybe that's an American thing I don't know. That was just my first take and I soon decided it probably just meant evening which, I believe legally, is 6:01 PM through 11:59 PM. It's just a minor point.