Stride - no strangulation.small knife ?

[Fisherman]

Hi Frank!

Just a detail: You write:

"So, he’s angry with her and rather aggressive too, and then he shouts a rather friendly “Lizzie!”?? That just doesn’t fit the way I see it before me."

Had that outcry been rather friendly I would have agreed with you; that would have been odd. But I don´t think it was - I think it was a much annoyed outcry, caused by Stride offering resistance.
My picture of the whole thing is that BS man would have thought that his dragging Stride out into the street was something that was going to work. When he suddenly realizes that it has failed, his temper flames up, he throws her to the ground, and when he yells "Lizzie", it is an outcry that has elements of both disappointment and a sharp warning to it. Don´t forget that there were two strangers on the scene, and Stride obviously would have embarrassed BS man by not complying. That may well have added to his dismay.

Like I said, just a detail, but it is vital to understand my interpretation of it all, I feel.

All the best, Frank!

Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman

I will concede that there is a period in any clandestine affair, particulary at the beginning, when the tryst goes undetected. However as I said Stride did not seem to worry about discovery, she being quite at ease drinking in the company of the clerkly man, in an area where she was well known. Also if you doubt Best and Gardners statement then why not throw out Marshall's, PC Smith's, but more importantly Schwart's.

all the best

Observer

[FrankO]

Don´t forget that there were two strangers on the scene, and Stride obviously would have embarrassed BS man by not complying. That may well have added to his dismay.

Like I said, just a detail, but it is vital to understand my interpretation of it all, I feel.

Hi again, Fisherman!

Thanks for the elaboration of your view. I understand what you're saying and see what you mean... however, the man obviously had no trouble pulling and pushing Stride with Schwartz 'on his heels'. So, I actually think he would also have put her in her place verbally in a way that would fit his physical aggression. And "Lizzie!" doesn't particularly come to (my) mind.

Now, let's move on and have a pint!

Cheers, Fisherman!
Frank

[perrymason]

Hi Fisherman,

On the "assault", I agree with you, he is attempting to pull her away from the gates and into the road. Point A. But I think a very simple and reasonable explanation is that it was two people pulling in opposite directions and one lets go. My guess is Broadshouldered man let go...Liz hits the cobbles with her derriere, and an exclamation much like a "Ohh"...high pitch...comes out.

But Liz is wearing an ankle length skirt. The only way she can get up by herself is by moving onto her hip to get a foot underneath her....or, she gets helped up.....by the man who "let go" likely, as he is the only man left onsite.

Its now 12:46:53......they are standing. In approx 14 minutes she is found bleeding to death, a few feet inside the yard. Her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46pm. They are alone.

Why would he wait to cut her, so he could then be "interrupted"? The answer is, if he wanted to cut her a bit, he could have. He (Jack) would not have waited....he had his opening.

So....perhaps the "assault" excalates with some sharp tongues,....one of the two is drunk....thats why no choke, and a simple knife. There were no plans to kill anyone, and the man using the knife isnt a killer per se....he just loses it. Two seconds of rage turns into 120 years of infamy for Liz. A very bad deal.

Best regards

[Fisherman]

HI Observer!

You write:

"if you doubt Best and Gardners statement then why not throw out Marshall's, PC Smith's, but more importantly Schwart's."

Simply because it is obvious that the police attached greater weight to these testimonies, Observer.

The best!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Frank!

"I understand what you're saying and see what you mean... "

Who can ask for more than that, Frank? Not me, anyways!

"Now, let's move on and have a pint!
Cheers, Fisherman!"

I am slightly embarrased to reveal on an English-speaking site that I am not a beer man. I much prefer wine, so if you don´t mind I will drink to you in Portuguese Vinho Verde.
Come to think of it, I will do so even if you DO mind!

Cheers, Frank! Stay well!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"There were no plans to kill anyone, and the man using the knife isnt a killer per se....he just loses it. Two seconds of rage turns into 120 years of infamy for Liz. A very bad deal."

Can it put that in a guilded frame and hang it on my living room wall, Michael? Eloquently and - if I am correct - spotonishly put, Michael; whoever he was, he probably did all the cutting he could stomach. And he may well have been the man who was reported pondering it all some time later in Church Lane. So much later, in fact, that we can safely rule out that this guy killed Eddowes.
It all fits - but only if you rule Jack out.

Keep well, Michael!

Fisherman

[FrankO]

I am slightly embarrased to reveal on an English-speaking site that I am not a beer man. I much prefer wine, so if you don´t mind I will drink to you in Portuguese Vinho Verde.
Come to think of it, I will do so even if you DO mind!

Tjena Fisherman!

No worries my Swedish friend, I don't mind, a Portuguese Vinho Verde sounds perfect to me too!

Vi ses!
Frank

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

On the "assault", I agree with you, he is attempting to pull her away from the gates and into the road. Point A. But I think a very simple and reasonable explanation is that it was two people pulling in opposite directions and one lets go. My guess is Broadshouldered man let go...Liz hits the cobbles with her derriere, and an exclamation much like a "Ohh"...high pitch...comes out.

But Liz is wearing an ankle length skirt. The only way she can get up by herself is by moving onto her hip to get a foot underneath her....or, she gets helped up.....by the man who "let go" likely, as he is the only man left onsite.

Its now 12:46:53......they are standing. In approx 14 minutes she is found bleeding to death, a few feet inside the yard. Her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46pm. They are alone.

Why would he wait to cut her, so he could then be "interrupted"? The answer is, if he wanted to cut her a bit, he could have. He (Jack) would not have waited....he had his opening.

So....perhaps the "assault" excalates with some sharp tongues,....one of the two is drunk....thats why no choke, and a simple knife. There were no plans to kill anyone, and the man using the knife isnt a killer per se....he just loses it. Two seconds of rage turns into 120 years of infamy for Liz. A very bad deal.

Best regards

I think the time was actually 12:46:51 but that's just me. Too bad those stop watches they use at the Olympics hadn't been invented yet, then we really could have nailed it.

What if Jack decided to go through her pockets and examine her possessions first before he began to cut and is then interrupted?

Then again, Jack might not have let anything stand in his way. Of course, this assumes he didn't care about being caught.

c.d.

[Dan Norder]

The answer is, if he wanted to cut her a bit, he could have. He (Jack) would not have waited....he had his opening.

You don't know what Jack would or would not have done, and you do not know when he was there, and you don't know who could have interrupted him or at what time. Inventing things up in your head is not the same as proving it.

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Although I started the thread with the title "no strangulation..", suffocation would have been a more accurate word.

Anyway, I have just read Dr Blackwell`s comments at the Stride inquest, which I never seen before, that when prompted by Baxter, Blackwell suggests that Stride may have had the killers hand over her mouth and nose
and her throat subsequently cut. Which in my mind, does seem to suggest Jack.

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

This is what you are getting at:

Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out?
Blackwell: I could not say that.
Coroner: A hand might have been put on her nose and mouth?
Blackwell: Yes, and the cut on the throat was probably instantaneous.

So it´s not would have to begin with - it´s could have. The fact of the matter is that Blackwell had no knowledge whatsoever that this was done, since there were no marks about her to sustain such a theory.
There was some consternation as to why she did not cry out, and the coroner tried to look for possible explanations to that, and that is how the subject came up. Maybe the scarf did the trick, maybe it did not, and if so, the two gentlemen agreed, then perhaps her nose and mouth were covered.

In the end, I think that it is even an unneccessary suggestion, since we have a whole club full of merrymakers singing their heads off, the song floating out of open windows into the night. For all I know, she may well have cried out, but lost the competition to the singers.

All the best, Jon!

Fisherman

[iris84]

Hi Jon,

Rather than take this Stride thread down an Eddowes rat-hole, I'll just point you to an essay where I give my ideas on the latter's murder, which you can read here.

To address your point and bring Stride back into the equation, I believe strongly that there were indeed two murderers at work that night, albeit they used different knives and operated alone - one in Mitre Square and the other in Dutfield's Yard.

Wow, I like the addition of the images. I've been trying to visualise the mutilations myself and have been finding it very difficult myself. Thanks for that link. I'll take a better look once little one's settled down and I've relaxed a bit.

[Sam Flynn]

Wow, I like the addition of the images.

Indeed, Iris, they really help. For them, I am indebted to the splendid Jane Coram.

[iris84]

Indeed, Iris, they really help. For them, I am indebted to the splendid Jane Coram.

Do you know if she's done anything similar with any of the other victims?