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  • #46
    Nor do I, Observer. They would surely empty all the possibilites at hand, although I really think that the Ripper trace would be the one they preferred to follow, urged on by the press and the general public.

    That, however, need not amount to anything at all, since there is no need whatsoever to believe that Michael Kidney must have been the man responsible. Though it cannot be ruled out that it WAS him, there is every possibility that it was somebody else, perhaps a newfound lover. And such an affair need not have been old - it could have been completely fresh.

    Moreover, if the police wanted to nail an aquaintance of Strides as the killer, they would be left with the burden of proof: Anybody who simply stated that they had been home sleeping in their bed would be very hard to convict if there was no evidence and no admittance on behalf of the guy. That would have applied on behalf of Kidney too, for that matter, if you want him as BS man.

    All of this, however, does not touch on the issue of explaining the cachous itself. And I really feel that the explanation with an aquaintance/lover is the ONLY explanation that covers all them small things that are left uncovered with Jack on stage:

    The guy tries to drag Stride along, out into the street - a clear pointer that he wanted her to leave the spot for some reason.

    She cried out three times, BUT NOT VERY LOUD. So she kept her voice down - to a degree that made Schwartz notice it! During the Ripper scare? How credible is that - unless we allow for a man aquainted to her. Keeping it "in the family" is so typical for domestic violence.

    The Lipski outcry craves some explaining - but if we open up for the possibility that "Lizzie" was what he shouted, no further explaining is needed, is it?
    And the cachous, Observer, the cachous - if we reach a conclusion of it being a domestic affair, we finally have a solution to that nagging cachous problem!!
    She would NOT have had them in her hand outside the gates - then she would most probably have dropped them as he abused her. So we have to accept that she took them out in the yard. But if she went in that yard to have sex with a punter/Jack, then why would she take them out before the act? The customer was already aquired, and if oral sex was involved, AFTER would be the appropriate time to bring them out.
    It all becomes very, very strange, just like you yourself has pointed out, seemingly inexplicable - until you accept the scenario with an aquaintance. Then the problem dissolves into thin air all of a sudden, and it all becomes almost embarrasingly simple, does it not?

    Add to this that we have Marshalls sighting of Stride with a man in a dark jacket and dark trousers, wearing a dark cap with a peak, and displaying a stout bodily constitution, a man who she affectionately kisses and smalltalks with before they head towards Helen street, his arm around her shoulder and telling her "You would say anything but your prayers". And lo and behold, when BS man enters the stage HE TOO carries a dark jacket, dark trousers, a dark cap with a peak, plus he displays a stout bodily constitution. Talk about coincidences! And just as Schwartz has the clothing of that man down as "respectable" in the Star, Marshall gave that exact same description of his man - respectably clad.

    Theorize, if you will, Observer, that this man was one and the same, and a lover of Strides. Let a flight of fancy talk you into the possibility that when the man said "You will say anything but your prayers", it was in response to a promise on Strides behalf that she would give up prostitution, and then imagine what he would feel and do when he returns unexpectedly to Berner Street, only to find her soliciting outside the club..?

    There is a lack of proof here, obviously - but there is also a chain of logic that will NOT break at any point - cachous or not. And as long as nobody comes up with a more credible explanation covering all them little details in as logic a manner or better, I remain convinced that Elizabeth Stride was killed by BS man. And BS man was not the Ripper, as clearly evinced by the crime scene.

    The best, Observer!

    Fisherman
    Last edited by Fisherman; 07-19-2008, 07:16 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Hi Fisherman

      At what point in the nights procedings did Stride and her new found acqaintance part company? What compelled him to return to Berner Street at such a late hour? If Stride was involved in a fracas with him, and initially he merley threw her to the ground, she would nevertherless be upset, would she then go into her pocket and take out a packet of cachous? It dosent make sense to me fisherman. The only way I can see Elizabeth Stride taking out those cachous would be if she was in a state of calm, relaxed in no immediate danger. The scene as witnessed by Schwartz does not provide for this scenario.

      all the best

      Observer

      Comment


      • #48
        I disagree, Observer.

        You base that opinion on that the attacker was a stranger to her, but if she knew Broadshoulders and maybe was used to fight with him, she may have underestimated the situation and thus may have calmed down and relaxed. I agree on that she must have been in a state of calm in order to pick up the cachous, but it's quite possible that she at that point may have felt comfortable enough.

        After all, the attack witnessed by Schwartz do not really indicate any serious, lethal danger. It loks more like another incident between spouses or a street brawl.

        All in all, I am inclined to buy most of Fisherman's scenario here and to me it makes perfect sense if Stride and the attacker knew each other. And I can't rule out that they did.

        All the best
        The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

        Comment


        • #49
          Hi Glenn

          You must remember that cachous were breath fresheners, they were not your regular sweet. Why would Elizabeth Stride want to freshen her breath after being dumped on the ground and generally knocked about? I can not see it. I can see Stride using them prior to being in close proximity to someone, to perhaps kisssing someone.

          I'm not calling Schwartz a complete liar, I believe he did see Stride that night, but I think he totally fabricated the assault. I beleieve he saw Stride with her eventual attacker, but at that point they were not involved in any kind of argument. Stride had been seen kissing a man earlier on in the night, and I believe she was about to kiss another man, that man took her into the Yard, but before Stride could partake of a cachous she was on the deck with her throat cut.

          Why would Schwartz lie? He knew he'd saw Stride, and rather than tell the truth decided to play up to the cameras, and described an assault on Stride, it's what Jack the ripper was all about really.

          This may or may not have happened

          all the best

          Observer

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Glenn Lauritz Andersson View Post
            All in all, I am inclined to buy most of Fisherman's scenario here and to me it makes perfect sense if Stride and the attacker knew each other. And I can't rule out that they did.
            At this point, I thought I'd re-post a map showing the proximity of Berner Street (Henriques Street) to Devonshire Street (Watney Market), where Stride and Kidney had lived fairly frequently between 1886 and, perhaps, early/mid 1888:

            Click image for larger version

Name:	devonshirestreet.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	27.6 KB
ID:	654419

            Liz might well have been known (in all senses) by a number of men in that area.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #51
              Hi Observer.

              Fair point about the cachous, but I have seen stranger things happening. Besides, the cachous will always remain a problem regardless of how we deal with the Stride murder.
              Personally I don't find it improbable that she picked them up after the assault, regardless of the company.

              But let me just add, that the above is based on that Schwartz story is true.

              Personally, I have held serious doubts about the Schwartz incident for quite some time, and I have really nothing to obect against your views upon that. On the contrary, I have been thinking along the same lines.
              And of course, excluding the assault incident would explain a lot of things and solve many problems concerning other witness testimonies, timings etc.

              So just to clarify, like you I tend to doubt the Schwartz story as well. My support of the above scenario delivered by Fisherman is purely based on the assumption that the story is true. But if it's not, well, then ...

              All the best
              The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

              Comment


              • #52
                Hi Observer!

                You asked for a scenario where it could be explained that Stride took her cachous out in the yard. I gave you one.
                And look where that brought me; into a regular crossfire of OTHER questions. I would like to have taken to the protocol that a scenario with Stride feeling comfortable enough with BS man in the yard to take the cachous out since they were aquainted is something that actually provides you with a very credible answer, before trying to answer the questions you are adding to the initial one. And I will say that you are asking some questions that leave me with no other possibilities than mere speculation. But since it is much, much easier to find a credible solution to tie it all up when you work from the assumption that the two were aquainted, I will do my best. Here goes:

                "At what point in the nights procedings did Stride and her new found acqaintance part company?"

                Twice. The first time somewhere inbetween the time the couple was seen walking southwards by Marshall, and the time when they were seen together by Schwartz, at around a quarter to one. The second time was of course as BS man left the yard with Stride bleeding to death behind him.

                "What compelled him to return to Berner Street at such a late hour?"

                A wish to see what Stride was doing, now that he had left her on her own but was none too sure that she would go home and go to bed?
                The fact that he had been drinking his way trought some pubs in the area, leaving him up at Commercial Street - whereas he lived somewhere in the vicinity of the southern end of Berner Street?
                The fact that he had agreed not to see Stride again - but changed his mind and started to roam the streets looking for her?
                Surely you realize that I could come up with numerous other suggestions, given the time and the interest.

                "If Stride was involved in a fracas with him, and initially he merley threw her to the ground, she would nevertherless be upset, would she then go into her pocket and take out a packet of cachous? It dosent make sense to me fisherman. The only way I can see Elizabeth Stride taking out those cachous would be if she was in a state of calm, relaxed in no immediate danger. The scene as witnessed by Schwartz does not provide for this scenario."

                Read Glenns post, Observer. If she knew him, she may for example have known that he had a temper topped up with gasoline. Then again, she may just as well known that every single time he had hit her, he immediately regretted it afterwards, burst into tears and begged her to forgive him.
                Such a scenario would open up very much for proceedings where she took him into the yard to tell him off - and she would not have been the slightest afraid of him.
                Moreover, I fail to see why she must have been totally calm when she took the cachous out. Look at smokers, who often bring out the fags when they are nervous, to calm themselves down.

                Finally, when you write:
                "You must remember that cachous were breath fresheners, they were not your regular sweet"
                .. and you are quite simply dead wrong. For cachous could be breath-fresheners, but they could just as well be mildly flavoured sweets. This has been discused over and over again, but the error of believing that cachous were always strong pills keep popping up just the same. Please note that the cachous in Dutfields Yard are described in numerous sources as "sweetmeats", and please ponder that expression for a minute or two.

                I will take the liberty to finish off with two questions in return for you, Observer:

                Why is it that there are so many elements involved in the Stride case (the dragging into the street, the low voice cries, the cachous, the two observations of Stride with a respectably clad, stout man in dark clothes, dark cap with a peak, the fact that she suddenly turned up at a venue where she was not recognized and that was not a regular hunting ground for punters, the possibility that "Lipski" was "Lizzie", the possibility that the flower and the cachous were gifts) that lend themselves to a domestic scenario?
                That is the first question.
                The second: What credible alternative explanations are there to these things, that favour a perspective where Jack was her killer? It is a question that has made Ripperologists sweat profusely for 120 years, so I am much interested in whether you can help them out?

                The best,
                Fisherman
                Last edited by Fisherman; 07-20-2008, 12:36 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hi Fisherman

                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                  I will take the liberty to finish off with two questions in return for you, Observer:

                  Why is it that there are so many elements involved in the Stride case (the dragging into the street, the low voice cries, the cachous, the two observations of Stride with a respectably clad, stout man in dark clothes, dark cap with a peak, the fact that she suddenly turned up at a venue where she was not recognized and that was not a regular hunting ground for punters, the possibility that "Lipski" was "Lizzie", the possibility that the flower and the cachous were gifts) that lend themselves to a domestic scenario?
                  That is the first question.
                  The second: What credible alternative explanations are there to these things, that favour a perspective where Jack was her killer? It is a question that has made Ripperologists sweat profusely for 120 years, so I am much interested in whether you can help them out?

                  The best,
                  Fisherman
                  For elements in Stride's case read life ,fate. In answer to your second question read post #49. Schwartz was lying when he said he saw Stride being attacked. As Glenn says everything makes sense the cachous, the witness statements if we assume that all Schwartz saw was Stride peacefully standing talking with a man in Berner Street at 12:45 a.m. 30 September 1888.

                  all the best

                  Observer
                  Last edited by Observer; 07-20-2008, 09:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Hi Sam

                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    At this point, I thought I'd re-post a map showing the proximity of Berner Street (Henriques Street) to Devonshire Street (Watney Market), where Stride and Kidney had lived fairly frequently between 1886 and, perhaps, early/mid 1888:

                    [ATTACH]2667[/ATTACH]

                    Liz might well have been known (in all senses) by a number of men in that area.
                    I Always wondered why Elizabeth Stride had ventured south of the Whitechapel High Street/Road, on the night of her murder, now I know why.

                    all the best

                    Observer

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Observer writes:

                      "As Glenn says everything makes sense the cachous, the witness statements if we assume that all Schwartz saw was Stride peacefully standing talking with a man in Berner Street at 12:45 a.m. 30 September 1888"

                      With all due respect, Observer, what Glenn said was "of course, excluding the assault incident would explain a lot of things and solve many problems concerning other witness testimonies, timings etc".
                      That does not amount to a position where he said that "everything" made sense in such a case, nor did he mention the core issue here - the cachous. did he?

                      On the other hand, if you need to qoute Glenn correctly, you can do so by writing "I am inclined to buy most of Fisherman's scenario here and to me it makes perfect sense if Stride and the attacker knew each other. "

                      Leaving aside the subject on who Glenn would really choose to cheer on, given the choice, you are now opting for a scenario in which Schwartz is a liar. And that, Observer, is quite ingenous, since it allows you to decide for yourself exactly what he saw and what he was lying about.
                      Which is why I wonder why you don´t take advantage of the opportunity to the full?
                      Let me extend a helping hand. Here´s how it went down:

                      Schwartz sees Stride having a friendly chat with BS man. The latter then clears the street from all onlookers, whereafter he throws a packet of Strides favourite cachous into the yard. Wild with desire, she flings herself after them, catching them in the flight with her left hand.
                      What she is unaware of, though, is that the cachous is BS mans favourite brand too, and that he has sold her life to Jack in exchange for another packet of the goodies.
                      Jack waits inside the yard, sharpening his knife aginst the cobblestones on the ground. Suddenly Stride flies in through the gates (yerning for the cachous, and, like said, catches them in the air) - only to land, neck first, on Jacks knife, edge up, held against the stones.
                      Poor old Jack is so perplexed that he did not get to cut her throat himself that he leaves the scene in dismay without wanting to cut her up.

                      THAT should take care of just about everything, should it not?

                      Since we obviously allow ourselves to treat the evidence at hand just as we please, I am glad that you settled for your milder version, although you had the chance to practically sweep the floor with me! Thanks a bunch, Observer!

                      In awe,

                      Fisherman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Hi Fisherman

                        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                        :

                        whereafter he throws a packet of Strides favourite cachous into the yard. Wild with desire, she flings herself after them, catching them in the flight with her left hand.

                        Pity Druitt couldn't have witnessed that scene, as I'm sure he would have signed up Long Liz for Blackheath first eleven.

                        But seriously Fisherman if Schwartz's man was not involved in any fisticuffs with Stride, and as Schwartz strode past them they were involved in little more than Stride contemplating whether to go into the Yard with her man, then the cachous as found in her hand makes perfect sense. Do prostitutes kiss their clients? I would have said no, but Stride was observed engaged in a bout of kissing earlier in the night. It could well be that she intended to have another bout, in the privacy of the IWMC alleyway. Her intended kissing partner however had other things on his mind, and just as she took out the packet of cachous to sweeten her breath she was quickly forced to the ground her throat cut in an instant.

                        all the best

                        Observer

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Observer View Post
                          Hi Fisherman




                          Pity Druitt couldn't have witnessed that scene, as I'm sure he would have signed up Long Liz for Blackheath first eleven.

                          But seriously Fisherman if Schwartz's man was not involved in any fisticuffs with Stride, and as Schwartz strode past them they were involved in little more than Stride contemplating whether to go into the Yard with her man, then the cachous as found in her hand makes perfect sense. Do prostitutes kiss their clients? I would have said no, but Stride was observed engaged in a bout of kissing earlier in the night. It could well be that she intended to have another bout, in the privacy of the IWMC alleyway. Her intended kissing partner however had other things on his mind, and just as she took out the packet of cachous to sweeten her breath she was quickly forced to the ground her throat cut in an instant.

                          all the best

                          Observer
                          Dear God, not only does that fit with the witness statements, it also makes sense! Unprecendented in this field, methinks!

                          I believe that kissing is generally considered to be off the cards for prostitutes these days (no, not from any personal experience) but no idea back then. It certainly stands to reason that if kissing was going on, breath freshening makes sense. Cachous might also be relevant if other oral activity was going with a previous client, of course. Either way, perhaps Liz simply considered it good form to freshen up before a client, kissing or no, or possibly it was even a sort of defence against her clients having whiffy breath.

                          B.
                          Bailey
                          Wellington, New Zealand
                          hoodoo@xtra.co.nz
                          www.flickr.com/photos/eclipsephotographic/

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hi Bailey

                            It does if Stride and her gentleman friend stood close to the entrance to Dutfields Yard, that way Mortimer could have been where she said she was, and still not have noticed them.

                            The important question is was Stride on the game that night? If she was she could have bumped into Jack the Ripper.

                            all the best

                            Observer
                            Last edited by Observer; 07-21-2008, 01:06 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Observer View Post
                              The important question is was Stride on the game that night? If she was she could have bumped into Jack the Ripper.
                              ...even if she wasn't, I don't think Jack was that fussy - my view is that he wouldn't have hesitated to attack any vulnerable woman, irrespective of "profession", if she allowed herself to be sweet-talked by him.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                ...even if she wasn't, I don't think Jack was that fussy - my view is that he wouldn't have hesitated to attack any vulnerable woman, irrespective of "profession", if she allowed herself to be sweet-talked by him.
                                Surely here we're on the (ultimately unanswerable?) subject of motivation - did he kill prostitutes because they were prostitutes, or just because they were readily accessible and easily led into quiet places? Maybe a woman standing at the entrance to a suitable venue for his efforts who can be quickly hauled in off the street is just as good as one who will willingly lead him somewhere.

                                And that latter may have been getting a little harder to find if women were worried about the string of murders, so he took whatever he could get.

                                On the other hand, if we're dealing with a man (or woman, let's assume nothing!) who is specifically targeting prostitutes, then Liz has to have been one such. However, maybe she wasn't actively working, but he made an offer, she thought, "Sure I could use a few extra pennies."

                                B. (Eternal guardian of slightly random, two-sided speculation)
                                Bailey
                                Wellington, New Zealand
                                hoodoo@xtra.co.nz
                                www.flickr.com/photos/eclipsephotographic/

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