Stride - no strangulation.small knife ?

[Mitch Rowe]

Hello

Elizabeth Stride was killed within an hour of Kate Eddowes,presumably slain by the same hand. Yet, Stride was killed with a short knife, and Eddowes by a six to eight inch knife.

Eddowes was laid down on her back carefully, her arms falling by her side, both palms facing upwards. This, and the lack of evidence of arterial spray points to the fact that she was strangled first. Whereas, Stride had been pulled back by her scarf,and there were bruises on her,possibly from been held down.

Different killers ?

Looks to me like Liz met the same fate as the others.

[Mitch Rowe]

I would also think it possible (if Stride was killed by the same person as some or all of the others) that the cachous may have been placed in her hand. We've seen at the other scenes that our killer liked to arrange his victims and / or their possessions, so maybe Stride dropped her cachous and the killer put them back in her hand once he hand her on the ground? Of course this is somewhat in conflict with the idea that he was interrupted and had no time to mutilate.

B.

But when exactly does JTR begin to mutilate? None of Annie Chapmans possesions were said to have had blood on them. If this is true then we can suppose that JTR was doing something after Annie was at least unconsious but before the mutilations began. If that is true then JTR could have done anything before the mutilations. We dont even know how much time JTR would have felt safe to conduct such activities.
JTR may have felt he was in a safe place and he didnt need to hurry.

So there is no confliction with your idea.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

...an interesting idea, Observer. Perhaps Stride tried to hit him, or at least fend him off, with her (cachou-containing) fist but he caught it in his right hand before she could land the blow. Alternatively, he could have stood behind her, grabbing her (cachou) fist with his left hand, perhaps to immobilise her by holding her left arm behind her back.

As you say, Stride making a cachous holding fist in self defense would work equally well

all the best

Observer

[lintukorpi]

yeah i think the throat knife might have been a butchers knife, the big thing, cause of the deepness of the cut.

[Sam Flynn]

What if the killer moved very swiftly and grabbed Strides hand as she held the cachous

...an interesting idea, Observer. Perhaps Stride tried to hit him, or at least fend him off, with her (cachou-containing) fist but he caught it in his right hand before she could land the blow. Alternatively, he could have stood behind her, grabbing her (cachou) fist with his left hand, perhaps to immobilise her by holding her left arm behind her back.

[Fisa]

possible two knives

i agree there may have been more then one knife, one for the victims throat and another for mutilation. the throat knife would be smaller tho. it was prob eddowes first then stride where he was supposedly interupted then fleeing nearby to write, if it was him, the writing on the wall.

[Mike Covell]

What if he killed Stride with one of his knives, then selected a clean knife for his next victim, Eddowes?

[Bailey]

Hi David
What if the killer moved very swiftly and grabbed Strides hand as she held the cachous, he then lowered her to the ground using her scarf with his free hand grasping her cachous hand all the while with his other hand?

I would also think it possible (if Stride was killed by the same person as some or all of the others) that the cachous may have been placed in her hand. We've seen at the other scenes that our killer liked to arrange his victims and / or their possessions, so maybe Stride dropped her cachous and the killer put them back in her hand once he hand her on the ground? Of course this is somewhat in conflict with the idea that he was interrupted and had no time to mutilate.

B.

[Fisa]

double murder

Hi All,

In view of not one, but two solved double events, which occurred in West and South Croydon respectively in recent years, caution really needs to be exercised before anyone concludes that two men acting independently killed Stride and Eddowes.

Had the Croydon cases not been solved with the help of cctv and DNA testing, it would be argued ten times more strongly around here that each attack was undoubtedly the work of a separate offender.

I won't go into a huge amount of detail for now, but in the West Croydon case (where violent crime is all too common, though mainly male-on-male and drug or gang related) one man was found responsible for a bungled strangulation attempt, which was witnessed by two people who gave chase, followed later the same night by the vicious murder of a second victim, which involved her being beaten round the head with a lump of wood and no witnesses at all this time. The two attacks had nothing obvious in common apart from the timing and both victims being female and outdoors, the second one having popped out for some grocery shopping and no suggestion that she could have been soliciting.

In the South Croydon case, one man was found responsible for an interrupted knife attack on a female who had got out of her car to make a phone call. He brandished the knife but she was saved when he was spooked by a passing taxi. Later that night the same man murdered a young woman yards from her front door, then waited in case the noise had alerted anyone before returning to sexually abuse and mutilate her dead body, taking her mobile phone as a trophy. Just moments before the second woman was confronted by her killer, she had got out of her ex-boyfriend's car after having an argument with him which had lasted an hour.

On a previous occasion, the South Croydon killer (who was from out of town but knew the area because he had once lived for a time in the same road where he encountered his victim) had attacked a woman with a knife in her own home, raping her but leaving her alive. That was while he was living in Australia.

I don't need to emphasise the obvious parallels here with the cases of Stride and Eddowes, or to point out how similar these appear to each other by comparison with either of the Croydon double events. Suffice to say that DNA testing almost certainly prevented the wrong man - the ex-boyfriend - from being charged with the South Croydon murder.

Love,

Caz
X

even if the parallels are similar, how was eddowes piece of apron found near strides? eddowes was found in london and stride in whitechapel

[Observer]

Hi David

Hi Mr G,
Imagine you feel unsafe and keep a knife in your pocket...Then somebody attacks you violently... won't you, at least, try to grasp his hands? But how could you, with cachous in your hand?

Best regards,
David (BEP)

What if the killer moved very swiftly and grabbed Strides hand as she held the cachous, he then lowered her to the ground using her scarf with his free hand grasping her cachous hand all the while with his other hand?

That way the cachous would be enclosed within two hands his and hers. While on the ground he pulls out his knife with the free hand and slits her throat, only now does he loosen his grip on the hand containing the cachous, the cachous remains in Stride's hand.

all the best

Observer

[caz]

Hi Mike,

Only if he had two hands.

Or failing that, one hand that was large enough.

Otherwise I'd say he was armless, armless and 'armless.

Love,

Caz
X

[Mike Covell]

Is it possible that one killer carried two weapons?

I am jusy thinking of Martha Tabram's murder here.

[caz]

Hi All,

In view of not one, but two solved double events, which occurred in West and South Croydon respectively in recent years, caution really needs to be exercised before anyone concludes that two men acting independently killed Stride and Eddowes.

Had the Croydon cases not been solved with the help of cctv and DNA testing, it would be argued ten times more strongly around here that each attack was undoubtedly the work of a separate offender.

I won't go into a huge amount of detail for now, but in the West Croydon case (where violent crime is all too common, though mainly male-on-male and drug or gang related) one man was found responsible for a bungled strangulation attempt, which was witnessed by two people who gave chase, followed later the same night by the vicious murder of a second victim, which involved her being beaten round the head with a lump of wood and no witnesses at all this time. The two attacks had nothing obvious in common apart from the timing and both victims being female and outdoors, the second one having popped out for some grocery shopping and no suggestion that she could have been soliciting.

In the South Croydon case, one man was found responsible for an interrupted knife attack on a female who had got out of her car to make a phone call. He brandished the knife but she was saved when he was spooked by a passing taxi. Later that night the same man murdered a young woman yards from her front door, then waited in case the noise had alerted anyone before returning to sexually abuse and mutilate her dead body, taking her mobile phone as a trophy. Just moments before the second woman was confronted by her killer, she had got out of her ex-boyfriend's car after having an argument with him which had lasted an hour.

On a previous occasion, the South Croydon killer (who was from out of town but knew the area because he had once lived for a time in the same road where he encountered his victim) had attacked a woman with a knife in her own home, raping her but leaving her alive. That was while he was living in Australia.

I don't need to emphasise the obvious parallels here with the cases of Stride and Eddowes, or to point out how similar these appear to each other by comparison with either of the Croydon double events. Suffice to say that DNA testing almost certainly prevented the wrong man - the ex-boyfriend - from being charged with the South Croydon murder.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

Rather than take this Stride thread down an Eddowes rat-hole, I'll just point you to an essay where I give my ideas on the latter's murder, which you can read here.

To address your point and bring Stride back into the equation, I believe strongly that there were indeed two murderers at work that night, albeit they used different knives and operated alone - one in Mitre Square and the other in Dutfield's Yard.

Many thanks for the link, Sam, one of the most comprehensive accounts of the attack on Eddowes I have read.

It does appear that there were two seperate killers operating that night.

[Jon Guy]

Whatever the doctors may or may not have said about the length of the kniife used on Strides throat is pure speculation on their part.

Even today it is impossible to tell the length of a knife with any certainly from a slice wound of the type Stride recieved. It's also impossible to tell whether such a knife had a sharp or rounded tip. I'm less certain whether they can tell whether the blade was straight or curved.

I think it's more likely that the myth of the "different" knife arose from witnesses who claim to have seen Stride carrying a knife for protection, and the bloodied knife discovered at around the time of the double event.

Which is irrelevant anyway because the wound on Stride's neck wasn't a knife wound at all: it was from falling on a boot scraper

Hi Magpie

Glenn too, mentions "the myth" of the different knives,I was unaware of this myth, I am aware however, of what the Doctors stated at their respective inquests, which I posted.

Dr Phillips based his opinion of the knife used not only on the cut but on the position of the body when the cuts were made.

Certianly speculation, but based on the medical evidence available.