Stride - no strangulation.small knife ?

[Observer]

Hi Sam

...even if she wasn't, I don't think Jack was that fussy - my view is that he wouldn't have hesitated to attack any vulnerable woman, irrespective of "profession", if she allowed herself to be sweet-talked by him.

I agree, but I was thinking along the lines of Stride arranging a meeting with someone on the night of her murder, i.e. the man seen with Stride by Best, and Gardener. Marshal also describes this man, It's my opinion that Stride was with this man all night, despite the differences in description.

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:

"But seriously Fisherman..."

Seriously? You first change the setting to something that suits your purposes by naming Schwartz a liar, then you keep going on about the cachous being used to improve her breath for kissing purposes - and then YOU ask ME to be serious...? Baffling stuff, quite baffling!

I WILL be serious, though.

To begin with, I will stick to the Schwartz evidence for the simple and very compelling reason that I believe it to be true.
And why do I believe it to be true? For a number of reasons. To begin with, the testimony contains some odd passages that I think would not have been there if they had not occurred in reality.

Number one is the fact that the man tried to drag her into the street. Why would a man, cooking up some story about a street brawl, use that? Why not just say that he attacked her and threw her to the ground? But no - he tried to drag her into the street first, for some reason.

The second one: She cried out, but not very loudly. Why not go the ordinary way if you are lying: he kicked her butt and she screamed at the top of her voice. But no - she kept her voice down, and did so to an extent where Schwartz thought it illogical.

Elements like these are what makes a genuine story stand out from a manufactured one, and I think that ought to be recognized in this case.
Moreover, there are at least two other factors pointing to the story being real.
The fact that he arrived at Leman Street with a guide to tell his story points to him going through some trouble to hit the history books. Since he was headed home when he stumbled upon the brawl, he will have heard about the murder only later, and made the connection then. So he either alerted an interpretor to follow him to the police to tell the story, or he told it to somebody who spoke his language, and who saw to it that he went to the police. And maybe that version is the more credible one, since he does not seem interested in going to the media or attending inquests and so on afterwards - and that does not rhyme with a man interested in the limelight of lying, does it? If you want to see the behaviour of a liar in circumstances like these, there is always Matthew Packer to turn to.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, in the version of the events that he gave to the police, he awarded himself what role in the drama? That´s right: the role of the coward. The role of a man who stands by as a woman is manhandled and thrown to the ground, and who subesequently flees the scene, surmising that Pipeman may - or may not! - have followed him. Contemplating the Victorian ideals, that was crap behaviour!
Is that the kind of role a liar chooses? No, it is most certainly not. If you cook something up where you give yourself the cowards´role, you at least come up wit a good reason for accepting that role, and Schwartz did not.
Significantly, as he later realized how he had acted at the scene, he polishes the story somewhat by changing Pipemans pipe for a knife in the Star version, and I think that is a very human thing to do when you understand that you have been caught with your pants down.

So to me, Schwartz was being very exact about what happened, and there is every reason to believe his testimony. In the hunt for the Ripper, though, it is of little use, since he only saw Strides killer if I am correct - not Jack.

And if that is not enough to give you a pause, I recommend spending some time and effort to look into the difference between smokers´ cachous and the very common small, flowerscented tablets that were called "sweetmeats" and that have survived into our own times. Candy, Observer! If you take the trouble to look at the old threads you will eventually find an old such where there is a lengthy battle on the topic, with lots of material supporting what I say.

All the best, my serious friend!

Fisherman

[The Grave Maurice]

...did he kill prostitutes because they were prostitutes, or just because they were readily accessible and easily led into quiet places?"

It's the second part of your statement that strikes me as being more probable, Bailey. I suspect that he was looking for women who were alone and vulnerable: the fact that the women who met that description were likely to be prostitutes may well have been irrelevant to him. I believe that he chose his targets by availability, not by occupation, age, or looks.

[Bailey]

...even if she wasn't, I don't think Jack was that fussy - my view is that he wouldn't have hesitated to attack any vulnerable woman, irrespective of "profession", if she allowed herself to be sweet-talked by him.

Surely here we're on the (ultimately unanswerable?) subject of motivation - did he kill prostitutes because they were prostitutes, or just because they were readily accessible and easily led into quiet places? Maybe a woman standing at the entrance to a suitable venue for his efforts who can be quickly hauled in off the street is just as good as one who will willingly lead him somewhere.

And that latter may have been getting a little harder to find if women were worried about the string of murders, so he took whatever he could get.

On the other hand, if we're dealing with a man (or woman, let's assume nothing!) who is specifically targeting prostitutes, then Liz has to have been one such. However, maybe she wasn't actively working, but he made an offer, she thought, "Sure I could use a few extra pennies."

B. (Eternal guardian of slightly random, two-sided speculation)

[Sam Flynn]

The important question is was Stride on the game that night? If she was she could have bumped into Jack the Ripper.

...even if she wasn't, I don't think Jack was that fussy - my view is that he wouldn't have hesitated to attack any vulnerable woman, irrespective of "profession", if she allowed herself to be sweet-talked by him.

[Observer]

Hi Bailey

It does if Stride and her gentleman friend stood close to the entrance to Dutfields Yard, that way Mortimer could have been where she said she was, and still not have noticed them.

The important question is was Stride on the game that night? If she was she could have bumped into Jack the Ripper.

all the best

Observer

[Bailey]

Hi Fisherman




Pity Druitt couldn't have witnessed that scene, as I'm sure he would have signed up Long Liz for Blackheath first eleven.

But seriously Fisherman if Schwartz's man was not involved in any fisticuffs with Stride, and as Schwartz strode past them they were involved in little more than Stride contemplating whether to go into the Yard with her man, then the cachous as found in her hand makes perfect sense. Do prostitutes kiss their clients? I would have said no, but Stride was observed engaged in a bout of kissing earlier in the night. It could well be that she intended to have another bout, in the privacy of the IWMC alleyway. Her intended kissing partner however had other things on his mind, and just as she took out the packet of cachous to sweeten her breath she was quickly forced to the ground her throat cut in an instant.

all the best

Observer

Dear God, not only does that fit with the witness statements, it also makes sense! Unprecendented in this field, methinks!

I believe that kissing is generally considered to be off the cards for prostitutes these days (no, not from any personal experience) but no idea back then. It certainly stands to reason that if kissing was going on, breath freshening makes sense. Cachous might also be relevant if other oral activity was going with a previous client, of course. Either way, perhaps Liz simply considered it good form to freshen up before a client, kissing or no, or possibly it was even a sort of defence against her clients having whiffy breath.

B.

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman

:

whereafter he throws a packet of Strides favourite cachous into the yard. Wild with desire, she flings herself after them, catching them in the flight with her left hand.

Pity Druitt couldn't have witnessed that scene, as I'm sure he would have signed up Long Liz for Blackheath first eleven.

But seriously Fisherman if Schwartz's man was not involved in any fisticuffs with Stride, and as Schwartz strode past them they were involved in little more than Stride contemplating whether to go into the Yard with her man, then the cachous as found in her hand makes perfect sense. Do prostitutes kiss their clients? I would have said no, but Stride was observed engaged in a bout of kissing earlier in the night. It could well be that she intended to have another bout, in the privacy of the IWMC alleyway. Her intended kissing partner however had other things on his mind, and just as she took out the packet of cachous to sweeten her breath she was quickly forced to the ground her throat cut in an instant.

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:

"As Glenn says everything makes sense the cachous, the witness statements if we assume that all Schwartz saw was Stride peacefully standing talking with a man in Berner Street at 12:45 a.m. 30 September 1888"

With all due respect, Observer, what Glenn said was "of course, excluding the assault incident would explain a lot of things and solve many problems concerning other witness testimonies, timings etc".
That does not amount to a position where he said that "everything" made sense in such a case, nor did he mention the core issue here - the cachous. did he?

On the other hand, if you need to qoute Glenn correctly, you can do so by writing "I am inclined to buy most of Fisherman's scenario here and to me it makes perfect sense if Stride and the attacker knew each other. "

Leaving aside the subject on who Glenn would really choose to cheer on, given the choice, you are now opting for a scenario in which Schwartz is a liar. And that, Observer, is quite ingenous, since it allows you to decide for yourself exactly what he saw and what he was lying about.
Which is why I wonder why you don´t take advantage of the opportunity to the full?
Let me extend a helping hand. Here´s how it went down:

Schwartz sees Stride having a friendly chat with BS man. The latter then clears the street from all onlookers, whereafter he throws a packet of Strides favourite cachous into the yard. Wild with desire, she flings herself after them, catching them in the flight with her left hand.
What she is unaware of, though, is that the cachous is BS mans favourite brand too, and that he has sold her life to Jack in exchange for another packet of the goodies.
Jack waits inside the yard, sharpening his knife aginst the cobblestones on the ground. Suddenly Stride flies in through the gates (yerning for the cachous, and, like said, catches them in the air) - only to land, neck first, on Jacks knife, edge up, held against the stones.
Poor old Jack is so perplexed that he did not get to cut her throat himself that he leaves the scene in dismay without wanting to cut her up.

THAT should take care of just about everything, should it not?

Since we obviously allow ourselves to treat the evidence at hand just as we please, I am glad that you settled for your milder version, although you had the chance to practically sweep the floor with me! Thanks a bunch, Observer!

In awe,

Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Sam

At this point, I thought I'd re-post a map showing the proximity of Berner Street (Henriques Street) to Devonshire Street (Watney Market), where Stride and Kidney had lived fairly frequently between 1886 and, perhaps, early/mid 1888:

[ATTACH]2667[/ATTACH]

Liz might well have been known (in all senses) by a number of men in that area.

I Always wondered why Elizabeth Stride had ventured south of the Whitechapel High Street/Road, on the night of her murder, now I know why.

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman

I will take the liberty to finish off with two questions in return for you, Observer:

Why is it that there are so many elements involved in the Stride case (the dragging into the street, the low voice cries, the cachous, the two observations of Stride with a respectably clad, stout man in dark clothes, dark cap with a peak, the fact that she suddenly turned up at a venue where she was not recognized and that was not a regular hunting ground for punters, the possibility that "Lipski" was "Lizzie", the possibility that the flower and the cachous were gifts) that lend themselves to a domestic scenario?
That is the first question.
The second: What credible alternative explanations are there to these things, that favour a perspective where Jack was her killer? It is a question that has made Ripperologists sweat profusely for 120 years, so I am much interested in whether you can help them out?

The best,
Fisherman

For elements in Stride's case read life ,fate. In answer to your second question read post #49. Schwartz was lying when he said he saw Stride being attacked. As Glenn says everything makes sense the cachous, the witness statements if we assume that all Schwartz saw was Stride peacefully standing talking with a man in Berner Street at 12:45 a.m. 30 September 1888.

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

Hi Observer!

You asked for a scenario where it could be explained that Stride took her cachous out in the yard. I gave you one.
And look where that brought me; into a regular crossfire of OTHER questions. I would like to have taken to the protocol that a scenario with Stride feeling comfortable enough with BS man in the yard to take the cachous out since they were aquainted is something that actually provides you with a very credible answer, before trying to answer the questions you are adding to the initial one. And I will say that you are asking some questions that leave me with no other possibilities than mere speculation. But since it is much, much easier to find a credible solution to tie it all up when you work from the assumption that the two were aquainted, I will do my best. Here goes:

"At what point in the nights procedings did Stride and her new found acqaintance part company?"

Twice. The first time somewhere inbetween the time the couple was seen walking southwards by Marshall, and the time when they were seen together by Schwartz, at around a quarter to one. The second time was of course as BS man left the yard with Stride bleeding to death behind him.

"What compelled him to return to Berner Street at such a late hour?"

A wish to see what Stride was doing, now that he had left her on her own but was none too sure that she would go home and go to bed?
The fact that he had been drinking his way trought some pubs in the area, leaving him up at Commercial Street - whereas he lived somewhere in the vicinity of the southern end of Berner Street?
The fact that he had agreed not to see Stride again - but changed his mind and started to roam the streets looking for her?
Surely you realize that I could come up with numerous other suggestions, given the time and the interest.

"If Stride was involved in a fracas with him, and initially he merley threw her to the ground, she would nevertherless be upset, would she then go into her pocket and take out a packet of cachous? It dosent make sense to me fisherman. The only way I can see Elizabeth Stride taking out those cachous would be if she was in a state of calm, relaxed in no immediate danger. The scene as witnessed by Schwartz does not provide for this scenario."

Read Glenns post, Observer. If she knew him, she may for example have known that he had a temper topped up with gasoline. Then again, she may just as well known that every single time he had hit her, he immediately regretted it afterwards, burst into tears and begged her to forgive him.
Such a scenario would open up very much for proceedings where she took him into the yard to tell him off - and she would not have been the slightest afraid of him.
Moreover, I fail to see why she must have been totally calm when she took the cachous out. Look at smokers, who often bring out the fags when they are nervous, to calm themselves down.

Finally, when you write:
"You must remember that cachous were breath fresheners, they were not your regular sweet"
.. and you are quite simply dead wrong. For cachous could be breath-fresheners, but they could just as well be mildly flavoured sweets. This has been discused over and over again, but the error of believing that cachous were always strong pills keep popping up just the same. Please note that the cachous in Dutfields Yard are described in numerous sources as "sweetmeats", and please ponder that expression for a minute or two.

I will take the liberty to finish off with two questions in return for you, Observer:

Why is it that there are so many elements involved in the Stride case (the dragging into the street, the low voice cries, the cachous, the two observations of Stride with a respectably clad, stout man in dark clothes, dark cap with a peak, the fact that she suddenly turned up at a venue where she was not recognized and that was not a regular hunting ground for punters, the possibility that "Lipski" was "Lizzie", the possibility that the flower and the cachous were gifts) that lend themselves to a domestic scenario?
That is the first question.
The second: What credible alternative explanations are there to these things, that favour a perspective where Jack was her killer? It is a question that has made Ripperologists sweat profusely for 120 years, so I am much interested in whether you can help them out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Observer.

Fair point about the cachous, but I have seen stranger things happening. Besides, the cachous will always remain a problem regardless of how we deal with the Stride murder.
Personally I don't find it improbable that she picked them up after the assault, regardless of the company.

But let me just add, that the above is based on that Schwartz story is true.

Personally, I have held serious doubts about the Schwartz incident for quite some time, and I have really nothing to obect against your views upon that. On the contrary, I have been thinking along the same lines.
And of course, excluding the assault incident would explain a lot of things and solve many problems concerning other witness testimonies, timings etc.

So just to clarify, like you I tend to doubt the Schwartz story as well. My support of the above scenario delivered by Fisherman is purely based on the assumption that the story is true. But if it's not, well, then ...

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

All in all, I am inclined to buy most of Fisherman's scenario here and to me it makes perfect sense if Stride and the attacker knew each other. And I can't rule out that they did.

At this point, I thought I'd re-post a map showing the proximity of Berner Street (Henriques Street) to Devonshire Street (Watney Market), where Stride and Kidney had lived fairly frequently between 1886 and, perhaps, early/mid 1888:



Liz might well have been known (in all senses) by a number of men in that area.

[Observer]

Hi Glenn

You must remember that cachous were breath fresheners, they were not your regular sweet. Why would Elizabeth Stride want to freshen her breath after being dumped on the ground and generally knocked about? I can not see it. I can see Stride using them prior to being in close proximity to someone, to perhaps kisssing someone.

I'm not calling Schwartz a complete liar, I believe he did see Stride that night, but I think he totally fabricated the assault. I beleieve he saw Stride with her eventual attacker, but at that point they were not involved in any kind of argument. Stride had been seen kissing a man earlier on in the night, and I believe she was about to kiss another man, that man took her into the Yard, but before Stride could partake of a cachous she was on the deck with her throat cut.

Why would Schwartz lie? He knew he'd saw Stride, and rather than tell the truth decided to play up to the cameras, and described an assault on Stride, it's what Jack the ripper was all about really.

This may or may not have happened

all the best

Observer