The Cachous

[Batman]

I basically bookmarked it and that's that. Also its not the first time. A while back someone else discussed exactly the same things with experienced paramedics. Its a pity some people have frightfully poor memories but a link can remind them.

Moving onto greener pastures than this topic

[Abby Normal]

I have no problem with someone holding on to something when threatened with a knife- in fact making a fist would probably be the natural thing to do in those circumstances. Nor holding on to something during a sudden attack. Nor holding on to something whilst tense, I.e because you're in fear for your life. Nor holding on to something whilst unconscious. Nor holding on to something whilst being dead. But none of that is directly relevant to a failure to break a fall whilst being thrown to the ground. It's the natural thing to do. Nor, as I said, is there any evidence, I.e. injuries to suggest that Stride was thrown to the ground, or that she failed to break a fall.

Your head is as thick as a brick, and after me and other professionals have proved to you that people can hold onto objects through violent attacks and death is common place yet stil persist in your inane objections, based partly on the fact that it does not match up with your beloved suspect, Francis Thompson, all I have to say to you is good day sir. Have fun in lala land!

[John G]

Hello Errata,

Several years ago I suddenly fell backwards, without warning, after slipping on icy ground. My natural instinct was to throw out my arms and extend my hands. In fact, before impact I thrust my hands towards the ground, and consequently dislocated my shoulder. I think my instinct in this situation was probably to protect my head and back.

In fact, isn't this natural instinct the reason snowboarders and skateboarders suffer so many wrist injuries?

[FrankO]

Nothing about the scene makes me think that this was two strangers trying to kill a strange woman. Nobody is acting right for that. It looks like a conflict between known entities. Doesn't mean they were friends, but I think they knew each other. From what Schwartz describe, if I walked past it I would think it was domestic. And conflict and violence between people who know each other is completely different from stranger conflict.

I agree, Errata. It looks more like they were known to each other than that they were strangers. Possibly, Stride didn’t want to make a scene out on the open street, which is supported by the fact that she didn’t scream loudly. For the same reason, she managed to calm the bloke down somewhat and get him to retreat with her in the yard and out of sight of the public. The spot seems good enough for that purpose. Maybe she managed to end the conflict in her favour and, on walking away towards the gates, allowed herself a cachou, either to calm her nerves or perhaps feeling good about herself. Her walking away or perhaps making some remark re-infuriated the bloke and even so much so that he grabbed her scarf from behind, etcetera.

All the best,
Frank

[Errata]

According to Schwartz Stride was thrown to the ground after struggling with BS man as he tried to pull her towards the street. In such circumstances her natural instinct would be to throw out her arms to break the fall, thus dropping the cachous, or at least splitting the packet, which is exactly what c.d. did when falling from her bike. In fact, if she didn't break her fall she probably would have suffered significant injuries at this point, I.e. facial injuries or a broken arm, and where's the evidence for that? Where's the evidence Stride suffered any impact injuries as the result of a failure to break a fall, ie after being thrown to the ground?

First of all, I don't think there is any reason to believe Stride had her cachous out during the attack witnessed by Schwartz. I think they were still in her bodice, and possible that's what left the abrasion under her collarbone. I think she pulled the out after retreating from that scene, and pulled them out to soothe her nerves, the way she would have lit up a cigarette had she had one.

As for why she didn't have injuries from that assault, there could be a lot of reasons. When people fall back they tend to reach forward, so they don't break their fall with their hand. Biologically speaking you don't have to. When we fall forward we put our hands down specifically to protect our face. If the face isn't in danger, we tend not to catch ourselves. She also might have been wearing enough layers that the impact left no marks on her. Especially if she fell on her butt. And again, the descriptive words in the statement could mean a dozen different things, so we don't know how she fell. If she went forward did she go down to her knees, or did she go flat? If she went backwards did her butt hit first or her shoulders? Did her loose clothing hit first and and that's how she avoided abrasions, or was she in the habit of wearing longer sleeves or keeping her hands tucked in her sleeves and that's why she didn't bust up her hands? or was it slow enough that she was able to lower herself down?

The scene Schwartz described was weird. There was conflict but not intent. Most assuredly one of those men put her down, and that is an act of violence. But he pushed her. He didn't punch her in the face, he didn't hit her over the head... it was controlled violence. He wasn't hurting her to hurt her, he was hurting her to control her. And that makes the entire scene very different that one of two guys trying to kill some girl.

Nothing about the scene makes me think that this was two strangers trying to kill a strange woman. Nobody is acting right for that. It looks like a conflict between known entities. Doesn't mean they were friends, but I think they knew each other. From what Schwartz describe, if I walked past it I would think it was domestic. And conflict and violence between people who know each other is completely different from stranger conflict. Just like angry conflict is different from killing conflict.

If they knew each other, the entire episode is completely different than if these two guys were strangers to her. And they don't act like strangers. I mean, if you hear about an aggressive man tossing around a woman not calling attention to herself while the second man acts as a lookout, nobody thinks "serial killer". You think domestic violence or mob violence. Angry boyfriend or owed money. And it sounds strange but there are rules to fights between people who know each other that are completely different for fights between people who don't know each other. Different dynamic, different motivation, different outlook by the victim, different violence. Difference ways to hurt someone. It's kind of fascinating.

But if you think they knew each other, you are looking at a completely different attack than if they didn't. And to be frank, it makes more sense that those two men would kill her if they knew her.

[lynn cates]

fractured fairy tale

Hello Abby. And was she thrown to the ground?

But I agree with you--enough nonsense about Schwartz and his fairy tale.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

red herring

Hello John.

"I think there is little doubt that Stride would have held on to the cachous following a sudden unexpected assault, I.e. from behind, or a car crash for that matter, but that is not what Schwartz describes, and it is a "red herring" to keep suggesting otherwise."

Now, now, some lads know no other argument strategies.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello MacGuffin.

"we noticed she was clutching a freshly soiled kleenex in her right hand.
The final assessment was that she had sneezed, and while doing so, had drifted into the on-coming lane directly in front of the approaching semi-trailer."

Well reconstructed forensics.

Of course, on this thread, some lad is BOUND to think she was offering it to the trucker to blow HIS nose. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello John.

"I think it would be far easier to bring someone to the ground by pulling the scarf from behind, rather than the side. Moreover, Dutfield's Yard was very narrow, so I think an attack from the side would create difficulties in that location, for instance, a killer might risk getting tangled up with his intended victim."

Precisely. Just as my re-enactment showed.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi JohnG
I have a friend who is a cop. When I asked him about this subject he brought up numerous examples of deceased who were found still clutching something in there hand. The one that stuck out the most is a woman was found murdered in parking garage. Her purse and one of her shoes were found about 40 feet from her body. She had been beaten, stabbed and raped. She was still clutching her car keys. Defensive stab wounds were found on Both hands and arms!!

They came to the conclusion that she was walking back to her car late at night, first attacked by her killer where her shoe and purse were found, dragged to where her body was found, stabbed and raped and left dead.

But of course it could not have been the man they caught through his DNA(and other evidence) because she was still clutching her car keys.

Now im through with this nonsense.

I have no problem with someone holding on to something when threatened with a knife- in fact making a fist would probably be the natural thing to do in those circumstances. Nor holding on to something during a sudden attack. Nor holding on to something whilst tense, I.e because you're in fear for your life. Nor holding on to something whilst unconscious. Nor holding on to something whilst being dead. But none of that is directly relevant to a failure to break a fall whilst being thrown to the ground. It's the natural thing to do. Nor, as I said, is there any evidence, I.e. injuries to suggest that Stride was thrown to the ground, or that she failed to break a fall.

[Abby Normal]

I think there is little doubt that Stride would have held on to the cachous following a sudden unexpected assault, I.e. from behind, or a car crash for that matter, but that is not what Schwartz describes, and it is a "red herring" to keep suggesting otherwise. According to Schwartz Stride was thrown to the ground after struggling with BS man as he tried to pull her towards the street. In such circumstances her natural instinct would be to throw out her arms to break the fall, thus dropping the cachous, or at least splitting the packet, which is exactly what c.d. did when falling from her bike.

Moreover, as she clearly successfully resisted his attempts to pull her into the street, despite his broad shoulders, I would suggest it highly likely she used both arms and hands to do so.

Hi JohnG
I have a friend who is a cop. When I asked him about this subject he brought up numerous examples of deceased who were found still clutching something in there hand. The one that stuck out the most is a woman was found murdered in parking garage. Her purse and one of her shoes were found about 40 feet from her body. She had been beaten, stabbed and raped. She was still clutching her car keys. Defensive stab wounds were found on Both hands and arms!!

They came to the conclusion that she was walking back to her car late at night, first attacked by her killer where her shoe and purse were found, dragged to where her body was found, stabbed and raped and left dead.

But of course it could not have been the man they caught through his DNA(and other evidence) because she was still clutching her car keys.

Now im through with this nonsense.

[John G]

Very appropriate call. The day to day work in this environment tells us what the doctors in 1888 even knew back then.

Great first hand account of the reality of what Errata described.

I think there is little doubt that Stride would have held on to the cachous following a sudden unexpected assault, I.e. from behind, or a car crash for that matter, but that is not what Schwartz describes, and it is a "red herring" to keep suggesting otherwise. According to Schwartz Stride was thrown to the ground after struggling with BS man as he tried to pull her towards the street. In such circumstances her natural instinct would be to throw out her arms to break the fall, thus dropping the cachous, or at least splitting the packet, which is exactly what c.d. did when falling from her bike. In fact, if she didn't break her fall she probably would have suffered significant injuries at this point, I.e. facial injuries or a broken arm, and where's the evidence for that? Where's the evidence Stride suffered any impact injuries as the result of a failure to break a fall, ie after being thrown to the ground?

Moreover, as she clearly successfully resisted his attempts to pull her into the street, despite his broad shoulders, I would suggest it highly likely she used both arms and hands to do so.

[Batman]

end of discussion.
lets drop the caschous red herring now can we? too much time has been wasted on it already.

Very appropriate call. The day to day work in this environment tells us what the doctors in 1888 even knew back then.

Great first hand account of the reality of what Errata described.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Trevor,

Back in my EMS days, we were called out to an accident scene similar to what your FP described. It involved a compact car and a semi-trailer in a head-on collision.
After cutting open the car to access the driver (deceased), we noticed she was clutching a freshly soiled kleenex in her right hand.
The final assessment was that she had sneezed, and while doing so, had drifted into the on-coming lane directly in front of the approaching semi-trailer. It was also believed from the expression on her face, that she had seen the semi-trailer bearing down on her either instantly before, or at the moment of impact.

I've seen several instances of victims holding on to items after various types of accidents or violent attacks, and even though I know that clutching and/or death grips like this can and do occur, I am always shocked intellectually upon witnessing such situations.

end of discussion.
lets drop the caschous red herring now can we? too much time has been wasted on it already.

[MacGuffin]

Hi Trevor,

In an attempt to try to resolve the issues surrounding the cachous and Stride being found still gripping them I posed several questions to my forensic pathologist.

The questions and his interesting replies are set out below

Q One of the victims who had her throat cut was found still clutching cachous "firmly" in her hand. Is there any plausible explanations of this, bearing in mind if she were standing when her throat was cut would they not fall out or would there be some form of spasm which would make her grip them tight, and hold onto them, and would this be different if she had her throat cut whilst laying on the ground?

A. One of the phenomena handed down through the generations in forensic folklore is so-called “cadaveric spasm”. This is supposed to be where the normal stiffening of a dead body after death doesn’t take several hours to develop, but occurs “instantaneously” at the point of death. Classically sited examples are things like soldiers being found on the battlefield “clutching” their weapons or bodies recovered from water with bits of grass, weed or straw clutched in the hand… hence the expression “a drowning man will clutch at a straw”.

I think most forensic pathologists these days don’t believe that such “instantaneous” rigor mortis really happens, although it is known that rigor can develop very quickly after death. So it is possible that someone can die holding onto something, and by the time they are found (even only a short time later) the fingers can feel quite stiff around the object being grasped. I doubt anyone would refer to it as “cadaveric spasm” these days, but you will see it recorded in the books.

For the case you mentioned, there would be no difference (i.e. between lying or standing) than can reliably be inferred from such a finding. All it means is that she was probably holding them at the time of death, and they were still there by the time she was found and rigor mortis had already started. This is not unusual… the modern equivalent would be a driver found inside a mangled car, still clutching a mobile phone tightly (with a half-typed text message on the screen).

I hope that clarifies the situation, even though I know it probably doesn’t help take you much further.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Back in my EMS days, we were called out to an accident scene similar to what your FP described. It involved a compact car and a semi-trailer in a head-on collision.
After cutting open the car to access the driver (deceased), we noticed she was clutching a freshly soiled kleenex in her right hand.
The final assessment was that she had sneezed, and while doing so, had drifted into the on-coming lane directly in front of the approaching semi-trailer. It was also believed from the expression on her face, that she had seen the semi-trailer bearing down on her either instantly before, or at the moment of impact.

I've seen several instances of victims holding on to items after various types of accidents or violent attacks, and even though I know that clutching and/or death grips like this can and do occur, I am always shocked intellectually upon witnessing such situations.