The Cachous

[lynn cates]

talk

Hello John. Thanks.

"Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell."

Now you're talking. Schwartz talked a good talk--but that's ALL it was.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

I must apologise, John.

Yesterday afternoon I was in Hereford, and I was lucky enough to be invited by a colleague to a S.A.S. hand to hand combat training session in the main gymnasium on the camp.

Near the end of the session, to my surprise, the Sergeant Major addressed the handful of dignitaries who were watching the display. He told us we were about to witness hand to hand combat armed only with a packet of cachous.
I hadn`t realised how difficult it was to hold on to the little buggers when losing one`s balance. It apparently requires great skill and many years of practise.

You et al were correct all along. So, I apologise.

Anyway, the day ended with the Sergeant Major inviting Batman, Abby Normal and myself to Hereford to demonstrate our natural ability in the art of the cachous.

Hello Jon,

Great to hear from you again. Sounds as if you had a fabulous day out in Hereford- and I am not at all surprised that you were able to demonstrate your innate ability in the mysterious art of cachous grasping! Unfortunately, as I'm only Number 2, I fear it would be completely beyond my more limited capabilities.

[Jon Guy]

Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell.

I must apologise, John.

Yesterday afternoon I was in Hereford, and I was lucky enough to be invited by a colleague to a S.A.S. hand to hand combat training session in the main gymnasium on the camp.

Near the end of the session, to my surprise, the Sergeant Major addressed the handful of dignitaries who were watching the display. He told us we were about to witness hand to hand combat armed only with a packet of cachous.
I hadn`t realised how difficult it was to hold on to the little buggers when losing one`s balance. It apparently requires great skill and many years of practise.

You et al were correct all along. So, I apologise.

Anyway, the day ended with the Sergeant Major inviting Batman, Abby Normal and myself to Hereford to demonstrate our natural ability in the art of the cachous.

[Jon Guy]

And if some of the trolls on this thread would simply TRY this, the truth could be quickly ascertained.

.. and what was the outcome, Troll King ?

[John G]

Hello John.

"However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant."

Alas, it is futile to point this out. A simple experiment--CD's--would show the truth.

This is a waste of time.

Cheers.
LC

Yes, I think positions have become entrenched! I think Errata makes a good point: there is no evidence of the skin being broken, and I doubt this could have been avoided however she fell.

[lynn cates]

futile

Hello John.

"However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant."

Alas, it is futile to point this out. A simple experiment--CD's--would show the truth.

This is a waste of time.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

terror

Hello CD.

"I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lie on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

Then grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments."

For some reason, the "other side" are terrified of such experiments. Wonder why?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternative

Hello Errata.

"So either she didn't catch herself with her hands at all, or she didn't catch herself with her hands in any meaningful way, meaning she caught herself say, with her knees from a slow fall and placed her hands on the ground."

Or that the story was made up?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

try

Hello John. Thanks.

"in fact, in some situations you might grasp an article even tighter"

Precisely. A move to the neck/throat is one such example.

And if some of the trolls on this thread would simply TRY this, the truth could be quickly ascertained.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Footballers use open palms because a fist is a foul. They are taught to do that. If you fall the natural reaction isn't hands outstretched like saving a football. You tense up before impact. Now there's a clue.

Anyway Dane pointed out what the experts find on a day to day basis. We have heard it again from another source and obviously plenty more where that came from.

Hello Batman,

I'm not denying the possibility that someone could hold onto something during a sudden accident, or even a violent attack. However, none of those examples referred to by Dane are relevant. The question is: how to you instinctively attempt to protect yourself during a fall? I have some experience of this as I noted in a previous post. After slipping unexpectedly on some ice I was thrown backwards. Instinctively I spread my hands and thrust my arms into the ground As a consequence I dislocated my shoulder.

It is the same reason that snowboarders and skateboarders are vulnerable to wrist injuries, and why martial arts experts are trained to fall in a different way- a point you actually made yourself.

[Batman]

Footballers use open palms because a fist is a foul. They are taught to do that. If you fall the natural reaction isn't hands outstretched like saving a football. You tense up before impact. Now there's a clue.

Anyway Dane pointed out what the experts find on a day to day basis. We have heard it again from another source and obviously plenty more where that came from.

[John G]

Yes you are correct. it was infantile of me. I should have used a much more mature term, like yours
: 0

I could say that you are also being hypocritical, but I wont.

Yes you go right ahead and use Phil Carter to back you up! It seems you two have a lot in common. By the way, look who commented on your whining about me in the other thread. I'll go with that guy.

Back to the red herring.

I at least have an open mind and can admit-its possible, maybe even probable, that she could have dropped them.

Can you at least admit its possible she could have held onto them?

Yes, I accept it's theoretically possible. Yes, I accept my response was a little hypocritical, although perhaps intentionally so, because after a bad start to the day I suddenly remembered I believe in free speech- as I said to Jon I have never reported a post and I never will. So, yes, on that basis I hypocritically broke my own code of conduct. And so yes, on that basis I feel I should apologize. So I apologize.

[Errata]

I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lay on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

The grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments.

c.d.

I have another experiment. Go stand out on a sidewalk and throw yourself forward with your hands outstretched in front of you. See what your hands look like.

Even if it did require ninja moves, which it doesn't, and even if it was the only normal way to fall, which it isn't...

It still didn't happen.

[c.d.]

I suggest an experiment. If you have a friend, ask them to stand near their bed and then suddenly throw themselves upon it. (Don't tell them why until afterwards). Then ask them if they had their hands outstretched.

Then ask them to lay on the ground and take note of how they got up. See if they put their weight on their outstretched hands.

The grab them and try to pull them and have them resist. Notice if their palms are outstretched or in a fist.

Please share the results of your experiments.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I can't believe that we are still arguing this point. Is it possible that Stride performed some ninja like black belt karate move that would have gotten her a starring role in some bad 70's Kung Fu movie? Absolutely. But we are talking about probabilities here not possibilities. If she were like most people she probably would have caught herself with her palms outstretched. That's why it is recommended that people who do in-line skating wear wrist protectors. It is simply natural that you will stretch out your palms to break your fall.

But don't forget that that is only the first step in the process. You also have to get back up. Now again, most people are going to put their weight on their hands with their palms outstretched in order to push themselves back up.

Some people have suggested that Stride then went voluntarily with the B.S. man into the passageway. Is that possible? Sure. But it is hard to believe that she would have felt that anything good could have come from that. If she had to be dragged and she was trying to fend off the B.S. man, it is again the natural thing to have the palm of your hand open in order to get leverage as opposed to using your fist. You see this in American football when runners and receivers use a "stiff arm" to push away defenders. Never a closed fist.

So in order for the cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue paper) to survive all this would take a good deal of luck. Is it possible? Sure. It just seems unlikely and that is the best we can do.

c.d.