The Cachous

[lynn cates]

Tom

Hello Harry. Thanks for the kind words.

Actually, Tom Wescott first proposed the theory.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

1

Hello Batman.

"Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated?"

Actually, this should be singular, not plural. That's another false assumption.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deflection

Hello (again) Batman.

"It was a terrible plot then because the use of Lipski confounded everyone for weeks until they concluded it was an insult directed at Schwartz."

Agreed. I think it was hastily concocted by no more than 2 or 3 club members.

"Also did it deflect? They did house searches in the Jewish parts too following the double event."

From the club? Probably. But NOT the Jewish community. Nor was such intended.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

exposing the non sequitur

Hello John.

"Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!"

Ah! So at least someone has had a logic class. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Well, Mathew Packer had a perfectly good reason to be selling grapes, but it doesn't mean he sold any to JtR!

We don't even know if JtR was there. With Stride and MJK we know he was. Anyway the point is that you need a conspiracy theory involving Schwartz and his wife and moving house to make it work. Otherwise you have to accept he was there near the Stride was murdered.

[Batman]

You're assuming Schwartz was telling the truth. Even if he was he may have been seriously mistaken about what he saw. I mean, what if it wasn't Stride being attacked? He could have witnessed a common domestic dispute between, say, the couple seen by Fanny Mortimer.

In fact, even his timings could have been completely wrong. Thus, Fanny Mortimer seemed to be confused as to the time, believing that she'd been outside for nearly the whole period between 12:30 and 1:00am, and yet she missed several incidents. Spooner said he got to Dutfield's Yard about 12:35, but it must have been around half an hour later. So, Schwartz could have witnessed a domestic dispute, involving a different couple (I don't think he mentions the woman wearing a flower) at, say, around 12:15.

Nope. He identified the body in the morgue as that of the woman he had seen remember.

Spooner's timing is wrong. There is a whole dissertation on that on CB.

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"Really so the witness accounts above couldn't be trusted because they deviated?"

Actually, this should be singular, not plural. That's another false assumption.

Cheers.
LC

I say you didn't even read what I wrote there.

Speaking of plural witnesses. You reject Paul Begg's findings on the multiple witnesses to Stride's account, right?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520 <--Pipeman found and cleared.

'Others' is a plural term.

[John G]

We don't even know if JtR was there. With Stride and MJK we know he was. Anyway the point is that you need a conspiracy theory involving Schwartz and his wife and moving house to make it work. Otherwise you have to accept he was there near the Stride was murdered.

As I noted earlier, even if he was telling the truth he may have witnessed a domestic squabble, involving a different couple, at an earlier time. The fact that he had a reason to be there is incidental: Packer had a reason to be selling grapes at the time he claimed to have sold grapes to a suspect and Liz Stride, but it doesn't mean he was telling the truth.

I mean, Mortimer, Goldstein, Eagle, Lave, could all have claimed that they witnessed an altercation, simply on the basis that they had a good reason to be in the locality, around the time Stride may have been killed.

[Batman]

Hello (again) Batman.

"It was a terrible plot then because the use of Lipski confounded everyone for weeks until they concluded it was an insult directed at Schwartz."

Agreed. I think it was hastily concocted by no more than 2 or 3 club members.

Did they concoct getting JtR to kill in Mitre Square also or is this yet another coincidence?

The reason why the conspiracy theory remains ambiguous is because when you actually tell people what it is the Schwartz witness testimony simply comes across as much more appealing and less hysterical.

"Also did it deflect? They did house searches in the Jewish parts too following the double event."

From the club? Probably. But NOT the Jewish community. Nor was such intended.

Cheers.
LC

Yes they did search the Jewish community. You should read up on Kozminski more. There is often a mistake that the house to house search took place after MJK. It didn't. Took place because of this. If you have Evans and Rumbelow's Scotland Yard Investigates, covers it quite well.

Anyway you should try this experiment.

Items needed
- Multiple Coincidences
- Bread and Butter
- Sliced veg

Place coincidences and sliced veg on top of buttered bread. Sandwich it together. Open mouth and try to swallow. I can't because I am not that "gulli-et-ble".

[Batman]

As I noted earlier, even if he was telling the truth he may have witnessed a domestic squabble, involving a different couple, at an earlier time......

No. He identified the body.

[John G]

I say you didn't even read what I wrote there.

Speaking of plural witnesses. You reject Paul Begg's findings on the multiple witnesses to Stride's account, right?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520 <--Pipeman found and cleared.

'Others' is a plural term.

That was based on an article in the Star, the same newspaper that had Pipeman rushing Schwartz with a knife. Moreover, the same article also states, "...the Lemsn Street Police have reason to doubt the truth of the story."

[Batman]

That was based on an article in the Star, the same newspaper that had Pipeman rushing Schwartz with a knife. Moreover, the same article also states, "...the Lemsn Street Police have reason to doubt the truth of the story."

It based on several lines of reasoning and evidence including The Star.

You are just repeating the red herring about police doubting the story even though that's at the start of the inquiry and not the FINDINGS where Swanson's HO reported the investigation accepting his story. Sorry but 'quote mining' out of context like that does border on dishonesty.

Also there where arrests. Begg covered more than just The Star.

[John G]

No. He identified the body.

The fact that the body may have resembled the person he observed briefly, in poor lighting conditions, and whilst under stress is far from conclusive. When Diemshutz first saw Stride he thought it was the body of his own wife! And Caroline Maxwell was convinced she saw Kelly at 8:30am, which was probably wrong, even though the sighting was in broad daylight and of someone she knew. And James Brown was also virtually convinced that the woman he saw was Liz Stride. In fact, perhaps Brown and Scwartz did see the same woman but that woman wasn't Liz Stride. In other words, if Brown made a mistake in his identification it at least proves that there was another woman wondering around the neighbourhood, with a man, who resembled Stride. And, as I've noted earlier, this could be the same couple seen by Mortimer.

[Batman]

The fact that the body may have resembled the person he observed briefly, in poor lighting conditions, and whilst under stress is far from conclusive. When Diemshutz first saw Stride he thought it was the body of his own wife! And Caroline Maxwell was convinced she saw Kelly at 8:30am, which was probably wrong, even though the sighting was in broad daylight and of someone she knew. And James Brown was also virtually convinced that the woman he saw was Liz Stride. In fact, perhaps Brown and Scwartz did see the same woman but that woman wasn't Liz Stride.

So it was a coincidence then?

[John G]

So it was a coincidence then?

Possibly, as strange as that may seem. I think the crucial evidence here is that given by PC Smith. He, of course, observed a couple, and the woman was wearing a flower, so I think that we can be reasonably certain that she was Stride: and as a police officer we can assume he was probably more observant.

Now, Mortimer, Schwartz, Brown and Marshall also saw a couple, but in each case the woman was not described as wearing a flower. I think it therefore safe to assume that two couples were in the locality that night and the woman of the alternate couple probably resembled Stride.

So, assuming Schwartz was telling the truth, which couple did he see? Well, as he doesn't mention the woman wearing a flower I see no reason why it couldn't have been the alternate couple, I.e. not Stride and her killer, involved in a domestic dispute. That might also explain why they didn't come forward for elimination purposes.

And let's not forget, Schwartz could have got his timing wrong, and that both Mortimer's and Brown's couple were also seen close to the club.