A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[Aelric]

Hey, I should be apologizing if I didnt pay close enough attention to whom I was responding...I had a stream of thought hit me early in your post and I had to get it out or lose it. So my bad....sorry bout that.

But heres the thing....I do think that post even addressed incorrectly is one of my best argument posts for the issue of the interruption .....so Im going to leave it at that and say sorry for misquoting, but I do hope you read my last post. It makes a lot of sense to me anyway...and it popped into my head as is, so I like to leave stream thought alone.

I had a hell of a good one after logging off last night about Mary Kelly and Joe Barnetts possible Fenian role.....but, its gone now.

Cheers Aelric

No apology needed from you, either! I often get struck with thoughts like that, too, which is exactly what happened regarding the "triple event" Nae worries.

As far as what you said goes, I did read it, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was dismissing what you said out of hand. Now I've given it some proper thought the whole "not seeming right" idea is a bit half-baked. If there's more in mind than just plain murder, why stop at the first hurdle?

Hmmm...note to self. Think things through more before posting in future.

Hey perrymason,
Regarding the "not quite right" thing, check my second post. I think I've explained myself better there.

Regarding the "Triple-Event", that wasn't mine. Memory fails me, but someone else coined it earlier this thread and I'd picked up on it while typing my first post in here. Bad me, I should have gone back and quoted, but I didn't think to at the time, apologies.

[EDIT]

Just gone back and checked and it was Sam Flynn who coined the "triple event" in reply to caz.



That's what I was referring to. Again, apologies.

Hey, I should be apologizing if I didnt pay close enough attention to whom I was responding...I had a stream of thought hit me early in your post and I had to get it out or lose it. So my bad....sorry bout that.

But heres the thing....I do think that post even addressed incorrectly is one of my best argument posts for the issue of the interruption .....so Im going to leave it at that and say sorry for misquoting, but I do hope you read my last post. It makes a lot of sense to me anyway...and it popped into my head as is, so I like to leave stream thought alone.

I had a hell of a good one after logging off last night about Mary Kelly and Joe Barnetts possible Fenian role.....but, its gone now.

Cheers Aelric

[Aelric]

Hey perrymason,
Regarding the "not quite right" thing, check my second post. I think I've explained myself better there.

Regarding the "Triple-Event", that wasn't mine. Memory fails me, but someone else coined it earlier this thread and I'd picked up on it while typing my first post in here. Bad me, I should have gone back and quoted, but I didn't think to at the time, apologies.

[EDIT]

Just gone back and checked and it was Sam Flynn who coined the "triple event" in reply to caz.

On which basis, where are the missing two-thirds of the "Triple Event" that preceded the Kelly carnage?

That's what I was referring to. Again, apologies.

Incidentally, if I did know about the woman whos throat was slit in a domestic fight, I've since forgotten it. I think I'll be spending a bit more time perusing the files on the website! Oh, the hardship

I've often wondered if, assuming Ms Stride was a Ripper victim, it could have been less of a case of being interrupted by someone else and more a case of the killer deciding she wasn't "quite right" somehow, finishing her off quickly and heading off. He then comes across Eddowes, who for whatever reason feels more right than Stride, and he sets to work, the disappointment from the earlier faliure spurring him on to further depravity.

I realise that there is no way of knowing how the Ripper felt about his victims and that proving it is impossible, but it has made me ponder on many an occasion.

With regard to the hypothetical MJK-night "Triple Event" musing, the taste for the extreme was already there due to his efforts with CE, and now he'd been granted the opportunity to go even further due to being indoors.

Hi Aelric,

Shouldnt we have some precedent for a stop and start killer...lets remember this "spree" supposedly has him opening his first woman on the sidewalk in the street...exactly what does a potential victim have to do to ward him off if he is that kind of man....bad body odor of the potential victim?

Im being sarcastic as a means for a smile....not a judgement of any kind.

The story is that Liz Stride is last seen at 12:46, in Schwartz's rear view glance....and Diemshutz pulls in at 1:00am...the yard is on record as empty from 12:40pm...and we know of no-one that entered it...not even BS man and Liz....if thats the case. Thats 15 minutes.....in a dark yard likely as dark as Mitre...with singing heard from the upstairs window indicating the men were still in place and werent ending the night at that moment. He has the best opportunity of all outdoor sites...excluding the house call...which does have only a single exit....anyway, what exactly turns him into a discriminating killer? He supposedly kills women 20 years different in age, and ranging in looks from what can be kindly called not so good looking....to one that was close to a beauty by most accounts.

I think if you consider the opportunity....there was no reason to stop....or if he decided otherwise, to kill her at all.

How many unsolved attempted or aborted knife attacks that resulted in no injuries to anyone were reported from August to November do you think?

I highlighted the Triple Event line because you may not know, the Double Event by Jack is on the same night a domestic fight gets a womans throat slit.

There are JACKS.....and there are Jacks....the first is a unicorn, the second is more common.

Whats uncommon about Liz's throat cutting murder?

Cheers mate

[Aelric]

Aelric,
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, others believe Stride to be a possible Ripper Victim, but i can't see it as With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes he didn't want anyone drawing attention to himself.
With Stride the man who grabbed her cried out ' LIpski '. Yet with Eddowes the man seen with her only minutes before she was found dead had been talking with her and Eddowes comfortable enough to place a hand on his chest.

You'll note in my inital post in this thread I said "assuming Stride was a Ripper victim". Up to now I've not actually stated if I think she is or isn't as that was, IMO, by the by when considering what I wanted to say.

For the record I'm not convinced either for or against her being canonical. On the side of her not being a Ripper victim, I do think it is possible that whoever killed her cut her throat deliberately as they knew it would be associated with the Ripper, and that it likely was the person who was seen grappling with her on the ground.
On the other hand I think it is a little too coincidental that it happened 45 minutes before the Eddowes murder and within running distance.

I suppose, if pushed, I'm a cautious "no".

[Jez]

Jack the Ripper did not exist.
I blame A P Wolfe.

Hi Michael,

I reread what Sugden has to say about Liz's murder the other night. I was surprised to learn that the times sited by some of the witnesses were estimates since they did not look at a watch to confirm the time.

c.d.

I dont think anyone had a watch until Blackwell arrived cd...so we have Diemshutz with Post Office clock timing was it?,.. and before him Schwartz's estimated time... as compares with Ms Mortimers times and PC Smiths. Did any have watches.....maybe Fanny, I doubt it though.....might the witnesses have had another reference for time before they are asked for this time ....so they can extrapolate ...we dont know.

We know that they were asked that question and gave answers....so, unsure or not.... they didnt say "I dont remember"...or "I have no idea".They gave times.

Cheers cd.

Here we go again then.
Two women murdered in London by a knife on the same night.
Not in Whitechapel followed by Lambeth or Cricklewood, but both within a short walking distance.
Coincidence?
Both are prostitutes. Both had their their throats cut.
Not within hours and hours but within 45 or so minutes.
What are the odds that the two cut-throats were two seperate prostitute-murdering gentlemen who both escaped detection?
Don't you just love revisionists?

Jez,
If you also remember there were suppossed to be two men that man handled Stride within minutes on the same night, one pulling and pushing her to the ground, the other dragging her off to Dutfields yard! What are the odds on that?
It just might be what also sparked off the theory & stories of two men at work doing the ripper killings as well, although i think a film came about and used that with the Royal conspiriacy as well, Dr William Gull.

True enough. I think I probably should have chose my words a little more carefully there.



Again, true enough. I wasn't meaning the "not feeling right" to imply purely physical criteria however. Again, I'll admit that I'm coming from a place with no evidence and no way to prove it, but what I mean is that given that the killer can't of been of a healthy mental disposition, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that he had some other psychosis-based criterion for choosing his victims and, with Stride, initially went against this and at the moment he began his "work" he accepted he was wrong and gave up.

I do accept that considering the killers state of mind isn't really of any use, but I thought I'd share anyway.

Aelric,
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, others believe Stride to be a possible Ripper Victim, but i can't see it as With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes he didn't want anyone drawing attention to himself.
With Stride the man who grabbed her cried out ' LIpski '. Yet with Eddowes the man seen with her only minutes before she was found dead had been talking with her and Eddowes comfortable enough to place a hand on his chest.

[Jez]

Here we go again then.
Two women murdered in London by a knife on the same night.
Not in Whitechapel followed by Lambeth or Cricklewood, but both within a short walking distance.
Coincidence?
Both are prostitutes. Both had their their throats cut.
Not within hours and hours but within 45 or so minutes.
What are the odds that the two cut-throats were two seperate prostitute-murdering gentlemen who both escaped detection?
Don't you just love revisionists?

[Aelric]

Good first post, Aelric. Welcome

Just a small point - I'd say that the "taste for the extreme" was pretty much there already, even before the Eddowes murder.

True enough. I think I probably should have chose my words a little more carefully there.

I think with the mutilation to Eddowes face is more than likely the killers projection of anger on to her face, perhaps the smell of stale alcohol sparked off a memory, perhaps a memory of his mother, as there weren't any mutilations on Nicholls or Chapman's faces. So i wouldn't think the senario of Stride not being right comes into the equazion. They have victims of similarity but Stride does not fit the similarities of Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes, in height or features.

Again, true enough. I wasn't meaning the "not feeling right" to imply purely physical criteria however. Again, I'll admit that I'm coming from a place with no evidence and no way to prove it, but what I mean is that given that the killer can't of been of a healthy mental disposition, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that he had some other psychosis-based criterion for choosing his victims and, with Stride, initially went against this and at the moment he began his "work" he accepted he was wrong and gave up.

I do accept that considering the killers state of mind isn't really of any use, but I thought I'd share anyway.

[Sam Flynn]

[SamF: Put aside "Saucy Jacky", 120 years of Ripper lore, and blot out the glare of the Eddowes murder, and what are we left with?]

A prostitute with her throat cut?

Correctamundo! And we know quite a few of those, don't we?

Why do I keep getting a sense of deja vu here?

Because there's nothing new under the sun, CD. Unless one takes the trouble to blot out its light...

[c.d.]

Put aside "Saucy Jacky", 120 years of Ripper lore, and blot out the glare of the Eddowes murder, and what are we left with?

A prostitute with her throat cut?

Why do I keep getting a sense of deja vu here?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Good first post, Aelric. Welcome

Just a small point - I'd say that the "taste for the extreme" was pretty much there already, even before the Eddowes murder.

I've often wondered if, assuming Ms Stride was a Ripper victim, it could have been less of a case of being interrupted by someone else and more a case of the killer deciding she wasn't "quite right" somehow, finishing her off quickly and heading off. He then comes across Eddowes, who for whatever reason feels more right than Stride, and he sets to work, the disappointment from the earlier faliure spurring him on to further depravity.

I realise that there is no way of knowing how the Ripper felt about his victims and that proving it is impossible, but it has made me ponder on many an occasion.

With regard to the hypothetical MJK-night "Triple Event" musing, the taste for the extreme was already there due to his efforts with CE, and now he'd been granted the opportunity to go even further due to being indoors.

Aelric,
I think with the mutilation to Eddowes face is more than likely the killers projection of anger on to her face, perhaps the smell of stale alcohol sparked off a memory, perhaps a memory of his mother, as there weren't any mutilations on Nicholls or Chapman's faces. So i wouldn't think the senario of Stride not being right comes into the equazion. They have victims of similarity but Stride does not fit the similarities of Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes, in height or features.