A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

If it was a clubman moving a prostitute away from the club might it be that what Schwartz saw was the second act between the two? The first act a few minutes earlier and being a "hey get the hell out of here and don't let me catch you here again." Liz doesn't move. Enter Schwartz who now sees a pissed off clubman who uses force to make his point.

c.d.

[Ben]

However, now I don't have a problem accepting that BS Man could be Jack the Ripper. Why not? As I've illustrated before, his behavior in Berner Street is not dissimilar to that of the Ripper's in Hanbury Street.

Precisely, Tom.

Good to see you back here!

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Your argument requires that there be some sort of connection between the BS man and Jack.

No. Forget Jack for a moment.

My argument is that there was a connection between Stride being killed shortly before 1.00am according to medical evidence, and someone witnessing an attack on Stride at around the same time. I don't see how it can possibly be argued that there wasn't a connection, and I feel you've only dismissed one because you've already decided Jack dunnit, and that - with respect - you've come up with some implausible excuses for dismissing unwanted evidence of behaviour that you don't find Jack-ish enough.

Me, I have no problem accepting that Jack could behave as BS did. Serial killers aren't robots. I just go; man seen attacking Stride before one was probabaly the man who killed her. Was it Jack? No reason particular reason to think it wasn't.

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with the point Ben is making, although I think there's still room to argue that Pipeman was the Ripper. Back in the day, when I was still prone to romanticize Jack as a super villain, I couldn't picture Jack acting the fool as BS Man did. However, now I don't have a problem accepting that BS Man could be Jack the Ripper. Why not? As I've illustrated before, his behavior in Berner Street is not dissimilar to that of the Ripper's in Hanbury Street.

Cadosch heard a 'no' followed shortly thereafter by a thud against the fence. Schwartz saw Stride handled roughly followed by the same 'no'. Prior to the altercations, both women were seen speaking calmly with the man (Mrs. Long in Chapman's case).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Your argument requires that there be some sort of connection between the BS man and Jack. In other words, it is implausible that Jack could show up just a few minutes after the BS man left the scene. But there is NO connection between them. What the BS man did or did not do has no impact on Jack. Let's say for the sake of argument that Jack arrived on the scene at 1:00 or pick any time for that matter. He would still arrive at that time even if the BS man had never been born.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

My Two Pennies-no knee trembler required

And as far as concessions, let's look at what your side comes up with:

Motive for the BS man? - He was a clubman roughly moving a prostitute out of his way when entering the yard, probably Morris Eagle.

Why did he kill her after being seen by two witness one of whom ran off possibly to get a policeman? - He didn't.

Why did Liz only give out three small screams? - She didn't feel her life was in danger.

How did the bag of cachous remain in her hand unbroken? - She wasn't holding them at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam,

You keep talking about all these other throat cut murders that happened around that time. You say Liz is more like them than she is the Ripper murders. But you don't cite sources. Please provide me just ONE non Ripper murder from 1888 where the victim

* Was killed on the street with no witnesses
* Was killed cleanly with one cut to the throat
* Was killed in a dark yard or court
* Was NOT found to be killed by someone she knew

If you can provide me even a couple of murders like this, then you might have firmer ground to stand on. But I've looked and can't find any.
As for your planet post, I'd be happy to read it. Could you please provide a link or directions for me?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Granted, CD, but if you believe Stride was a ripper victim and that she was killed shortly before 1.00am as the doctors suggested, you're fortunate enough to have evidence of an attack on the victim being witnessed around that time - evidence that isn't remotely at odds with the premise that Jack killed Stride.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Well Jack had to be somewhere on the planet. And most people believe that on that very night he was but a short distance away killing Kate. Implausible would be if he were known to be in Chicago at the time.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

If you've got that much of a problem with BS-man being Stride's killer, you're far better off arguing against Schwartz's veracity than going with the "Jack must have arrived minutes afterwards and killed her in the same location" line of implausible thought. It just weakens the case against Stride's inclusion, and that's speaking as someone who's more inclined to rule her in than out.

Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

And as far as concessions, let's look at what your side comes up with:

Motive for the BS man? - Well we don't know but he was probably a pissed off customer.

Why did he kill her after being seen by two witness one of whom ran off possibly to get a policeman? - Well he must have been really pissed and didn't care about being hanged.

Why did Liz only give out three small screams? - Well that's just the way she screamed. It varies by individual.

How did the bag of cachous remain in her hand unbroken? - Well she must have had her fists balled up to protect them.

Sorry Sam but those are hardly H bombs you are lobbing.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Like I say - the only thing that distinguishes Liz's death in that regard is that she died on the same night as an indisputable Ripper victim. Were it not for this "Double Event", I'm certain that most people wouldn't consider Stride as a "probable" Ripper victim at all

Maybe so, Sam. But if you want to take that position, let's be fair because it works both ways. Had Liz's time of death been determined to be two hours after being seen thrown to the ground by the BS man would people still be saying "it just HAD to be that guy who threw her to the ground two hours earlier." I have a guess but out of politeness I will keep it to myself.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Oh my goodness, I HAVE been gone a while. Have you joined the lunatic fringe?

You really should read my post on that subject first, Tom. I made a reasonable point, I think.

[Tom_Wescott]

For a better exposition of what I mean, please refer to my post about extrasolar planets and the glare of the parent star.

Oh my goodness, I HAVE been gone a while. Have you joined the lunatic fringe?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam. Have you taken in consideration that Liz was lying at an awkward angle with her neck over jagged rocks? This might have impeded he killer's reach and dexterity.

Indeed, Tom - but that's assuming he cut her throat whilst she was lying in that position. The same could be argued for the other canonical victims, anyway - yet their killer(s) managed to dissever the tissues of their necks much more deeply.