Liz's breath?!

[Christine]

If you really care to look, you can find ample discussion of the use of mints for oral sex on the Internet. I doubt if there's any contemporary evidence, but I really can't believe that its a recent idea. They were described as cachous, not sweetmeats, and I haven't seen any evidence that the term cachous ever described anything much different than what we would call a mint or tic-tac (although not necessarily flavored with actual mint). I also haven't seen any actual prices for cachous, but I'd estimate something like 1d. for a tin of 50, based on modern prices for things like milk, bread, and mints. She had a packet, not a tin, probably a farthing's worth--well within the budget of someone who drank several 3d. glasses of gin that evening.

[Fisherman]

Caz!

You now write:

"my only ‘evidence’ is that it would be blindingly obvious ", on the issue of what Lizīcachous were for. I think you may be shooting yourself in your foot here.
I have already said that using cachous for sexually professional purposes makes all the sense in the world. I have no trouble with that, and I really donīt have any need to ask any girlfriend on the matter.

What I am saying here, Caz, is that IF cachous were such a blindingly obvious - wasnīt that your phrasing? - means to deal with Victorian blowjobs, it would stand to reason that we would be left with a report on at least one single soul of the many prostitutes that were found dead on British soil for different reasons throughout the Victorian period, saying that cachous were found among the belongings of that particular prostitute. But no; no such records seem to exist, whereas other items are listed en masse, all from thimbles, over rags to keys and coins, railway tickets and cosmetics. But no cachous!

This, Caz, effectively means that it is in NO way "blindingly obvious" that you are right. Instead it is blindingly obvious that you are jumping the gun, big time. Why do you think that the tablets in her hand were described as "sweetmeats", just to point to one thing that you seem not to consider?

You paint a picture of a harsh tradeswoman, breathfresheners in hand, ready to go down on any guy who could cough up threepence for her favors, wheras you try to ridicule me with suggestions on learning about sexual habits from my girlfriend. I think that you are dead wrong on the matter.

Take, for instance, Marshalls sighting of Liz and the man in the cutaway coat and peaked cap. They were standing together, speaking gently in a doorway for ten minutes. They kissed and joked, and after that they strolled southwards along Berner Street, his arm around her.

Maybe it is time that I teach YOU what street sex is about, Caz? It is about making quick money, without getting involved emotionally yourself. It is NOT about timeconsuming chatting and kissing. It is about finding a secluded enough spot and getting it overwith, the sooner the better.

The woman Marshall saw, and subsequentially identifed as Liz without the shadow of a doubt, Caz; does she act like a prostitute in your eyes? I think not. To me, she seems like an emotionally involved woman, in the company of someone she felt significant affection for.

The best, Caz!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

IF cachous were such a blindingly obvious means to deal with Victorian blowjobs

...I just had a mental picture of what the advertising posters would have looked like

[perrymason]

Hi all,

I think to me the part of Liz'z demeanor and actions before leaving the lodging house that night that is most indicative that she had plans isnt the "evening wear" her lodging friend said she wore, its not the flowers on her jacket, not the cashous in her hand when she is found, ...its that she earned her bed that afternoon, was paid, and didnt pay for the bed. Instead she entrusted her friend with some velvet I believe, and advised her she didnt know when she would return.

She doesnt have the money on her when she is found, nor is she intoxicated. Just well dressed and dead, with flowers on her jacket, and cashous in her hand. I think she bought her own flower....or perhaps the cashous. Either way....its a ritual we are all familiar with. Seeing a new romantic interest and preening. Borrowing a brush to de-lint her skirt before heading out.

To give oral sex to dockers in alleys? In an ankle length skirt?

Best regards all.

[mercurialmade62]

Liz's breath!

Jeez Caz, for someone who branded this a 'distasteful thread', YOU are the one that keeps going on about blow jobs to strangers!

[caz]

To give oral sex to dockers in alleys? In an ankle length skirt?

Hi Perry,

What are you saying here?

That Liz wasn't a known prostitute?

That late Victorian prostitutes didn't do oral?

That late Victorian prostitutes who did oral wore shorter skirts than every other adult woman alive at the time?

Hi Fisherman,

It's easy to miss the point accidentally on purpose by quoting me out of context.

I merely meant that it's blindingly obvious that if a known prostitute happens to have cachous or sweetmeats (or mints or Rowntrees Fruit Pastilles or Trebor Refreshers or a Fisherman's Friend or Wrigley's Spearmint Chewing Gum or Cadbury's Creme Mini Eggs or indeed anything that would serve to take a nasty taste away) on her person (whether she bought them herself or stole them or was treated by beau or beast), the one occasion she would be very likely to want one is if she had just been working. The concept should be no more difficult for you to grasp than the cachous were for Liz.

I just felt rather sorry for her because it seemed like adding insult to injury to see people suggesting she used the cachous to mask her own bad breath, when she could just as easily have used them to mask the taste or smell coming from any of the men with whom she came into contact.

And frankly it's a bit late in the day for anyone to suggest I was being distasteful by referring to a Whitechapel murder victim as someone who offered sexual services to strangers.

I think it's bordering on loony to insist that Liz was dolled up to the nines that night and fully expecting to be whisked off on a romantic date by a new beau who was so kind and thoughtful that he had her hanging around the club on her lonesome at a quarter to one in the morning, waiting for him to show. Where was she hoping to be whisked off to, at 1 am? It's not exactly 'Fly Me to the Moon' stuff, is it?

What's so wrong with the last man to enter her life showing her how 'kind and thoughtful' he was by giving her the cachous as he asked her for sex and proceeding to cut her throat before she could thank him properly?

And before anyone gets carried away, please don't judge me by your own standards and assume that's the only possibility I am willing to entertain here. I'm just not into this latest trend of eliminating perfectly good possibilities willy-nilly.

Love,

Caz
X

[Suzi]

Hi Caz-
I think the idea of an 'after dinner mint' may be a good one- Get this fancy 1886 'Prince Albert!!!!' Cachou carrying case though!!!

Now I doubt Liz had such a wonder- bet you could buy cachous (aka Parma Violets...heaven!!!) by the ounce or whatever somewhere though Talking of PV's -bet those little twisted rolls of cellophane with the wonders inside were around in some form at the time!!!!

Suz x
As to Liz's last night- I love the idea of the kissing and cuddling thing not so long before her unfortunate demise- what happened between that and Mr D's pony was probably quite good fun before the fisticuffs...always assuming that Mr 'Cuddle' wasn't the same as Mr 'Drag Into The Road'........ Mind you these things happen!!!

xx

[Suzi]

Eeeeeeeeeeeek memories' eh!!! Could have been a Sherbert Fountain though!!! heeeeeeeeeeee

[Sam Flynn]

To give oral sex to dockers in alleys? In an ankle length skirt?

...I think we're a bit too far removed in time to know precisely what the dockers were wearing, Mike

[Suzi]

...I think we're a bit too far removed in time to know precisely what the dockers were wearing, Mike

Now that is a SERIOUS image there Sam!!!!...Blimey just on the way to bed here but oddly the idea of dockers tripping into work or queing to get work in their ankle length skirts is more than I can bear!!...*.titter titter!!!
* why cant I type S******?? Well the clue is it starts with S and an n and then igger!!! It comes up full of ****************s when I do................Was a titter/giggle last time I looked!!! Odd!!! at least Im not about to say Goodnight old C***!

Goodnight from Kate!!!

[caz]

Hi Suzi, Sam, All,

There are plenty of old-fashioned sweetie shops around which sell delights like Parma Violets (I agree, Suzikins, they're lovely). I found a couple of shops in Bewdley, Worcestershire last week while on my hols. Taking myself back to the sixties I bought a bag of pink and white coconut ice and a bag of buttered brazils. And no nasty tastes and smells to give me an excuse to pop one in.

I now have a disturbing image of six Victorian dockers standing in line with their ankle length skirts hoiked up, proffering parma violets to a Victorian tart-with-a-heart wearing white FM shoes and a mini skirt.

Carry on up the Khyber was tame by comparison.

Bungdit Din: Fakir! Off! Heeeeeeeeeeeeee

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Whoa, Caz; that IS a late answer!

...but letīs deal with it anyway. Just had to read up on what I said myself first ...

To begin with, I did not miss any point on purpose; you did state that it was blindingly obvious that Lizīcachous would have had a connection to her prostitution, and I simply disagree with that. Other posters treat is as self-evident too, and that is, like I said, jumping the gun. And like I have also pointed out, none of the other victims – or unrelated, prostituted murder victims from that period, for that matter – seem to have carried cachous or sweetmeats or mints or Rowntrees Fruit Pastilles or Trebor Refreshers or a Fisherman's Friend or Wrigley's Spearmint Chewing Gum or Cadbury's Creme Mini Eggs on them at the time they were killed, as far as I know. And that carries weight in a discussion like this, Caz - great weight!

"I think it's bordering on loony to insist that Liz was dolled up to the nines that night and fully expecting to be whisked off on a romantic date by a new beau who was so kind and thoughtful that he had her hanging around the club on her lonesome at a quarter to one in the morning, waiting for him to show. Where was she hoping to be whisked off to, at 1 am? It's not exactly 'Fly Me to the Moon' stuff, is it?"

Well, Caz, I seem not to remember that I suggested any luxurious late supper or something like that. What I pointed to was the observation made by Marshall, of Liz and a man with whom she kissed and small-talked for a significant space of time. I also asked you whether you thought that scene looked like the businessminded meeting between a prostitute and a punter, something you for some reason avoided to answer. If you think that it resembled such a meeting, you may well have to join me on the way to the loony-bin, Caz!

Finally:

"What's so wrong with the last man to enter her life showing her how 'kind and thoughtful' he was by giving her the cachous as he asked her for sex and proceeding to cut her throat before she could thank him properly?"

When did I say that would have been wrong? It took you some months to answer my post, and I may have forgotten about the details, but I fail to see that I would have held an opinion like that. I have often said that just like the flowers may have been a gift, so may the cachous. Of course it could have happened that way! It would, though, be less credible that a punter gave her presents, than it would be to accept that an admirer/lover did so, I think.

The best, Caz!

Fisherman

[caz]

...you did state that it was blindingly obvious that Lizīcachous would have had a connection to her prostitution...

...What I pointed to was the observation made by Marshall, of Liz and a man with whom she kissed and small-talked for a significant space of time. I also asked you whether you thought that scene looked like the businessminded meeting between a prostitute and a punter, something you for some reason avoided to answer...

...I have often said that just like the flowers may have been a gift, so may the cachous. Of course it could have happened that way! It would, though, be less credible that a punter gave her presents, than it would be to accept that an admirer/lover did so, I think.

Hi Fisherman,

Another late response from me, I'm afraid. I do have other things to do (as well as other topics to catch up with as time allows).

Without checking back (but you can if you like) I'm pretty sure I did NOT state that it was 'blindingly obvious' that Liz's cachous were directly connected with prostitution. I seem to recall that I merely observed that any working prostitute, then as now, would have had a blindingly obvious use for any cachous (or other such confectionery) she happened to acquire or be given.

If your theory is that Liz was loyally waiting at the club entrance for a specific admirer/lover to show up and whisk her off on a hot date, what do you think she was doing kissing and small-talking with another man for a 'significant space of time' just an hour or so earlier? Or are you arguing that he was the same admirer/lover, but left his date alone on the streets after midnight to await his return?

My argument wasn't that a punter would have been more likely to treat Liz to the cachous than an admirer/lover. But I do think her killer could well have handed them to her simply in order to distract her long enough for him to deliver the fatal attack as she looked to see what he was giving her.

I can't really see an admirer/lover happily treating Liz to sweeties on the same night that he flies into a murderous rage against her, never mind within minutes. So if she didn't already have the cachous by the time of her apparent encounter with BS I don't see them as a benign gift or peace offering. But I can see them as a cruel means to a wicked end.

Love,

Caz
X

[claire]

I don't see why a punter wouldn't give gifts. Lots of brasses I've known have been given gifts by punters who believe they are somehow special, over and above the others. But I can definitely go along with Caz's theory.

[YankeeSergeant]

Cachous

I don't see why a punter wouldn't give gifts. Lots of brasses I've known have been given gifts by punters who believe they are somehow special, over and above the others. But I can definitely go along with Caz's theory.

I'm going to goOccam's Razor here. SOmetimes simple is the right thoery. Perhaps, given the state of dental hygene in 1888, Liz felt she needed the cachous for no other reason than she wanted to improve the smell or taste of her own breath with no other extraneous reason needed.