Pipeman interviewed and cleared

[SirJohnFalstaff]

But that ignores the whole mystery of the loft being bolted from the inside

Way late on this, sorry.

But this loft was a business that moved out of the neighborhood years ago. It was probably locked by the owners, not wanting people squatting there. Maybe another exit was boarded up from outside after.

[RockySullivan]

No source Michael? can we assume you are just assuming rather than being factual?

[RockySullivan]

When Inspector Reid (? i thimk) returned after daylight he check for any signs that the walls were scaled in dutfield yard and found none. When was tremors rooftop sighting reported? That night? It's interesting that the police considered someone climbing a possibility

[RockySullivan]

You wouldn't need a trap door or a secret exit from the loft of a tiled building. You'd just slide a few tiles around (or remove them) and climb out onto the roof. You could, if you had time, replace them before moving on.

Interesting! Does make Marriot's comments about the man seen on the roof very interesting

[Bridewell]

It seems he planned to escape through the loft and this means he was familiar with some sort of trap door or secret exit.

You wouldn't need a trap door or a secret exit from the loft of a tiled building. You'd just slide a few tiles around (or remove them) and climb out onto the roof. You could, if you had time, replace them before moving on.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Don't know if this helps or just add to the confusion

The Times:
As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched, and their clothes and hands examined. There were 28 of them. Each person was dealt with separately. They properly accounted for themselves, and were then allowed to leave. The houses were then visited a second time and the names of the people therein taken, and they were also examined and their rooms searched. The door of the loft was found locked on the inside, and it was forced. The loft was searched, but no trace of the murderer could be found.


The Daily Telegraph:
As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer.

[RockySullivan]

^ I'm not Michael obviously, but ...in Richard Whittington-Egan's 'Jack the Ripper: The Definitive Facts' he quotes Bob Hinton regarding the lock on Mary Kelly's door, which might also be pertinent to the lock on the loft.

'According to Abberline the lock was of the 'Spring bolt type'. That means it operated in the same manner as a Yale-type lock, in other words the door could be fastened securely by merely pulling the door to. The bolt would be shot home immediately.'

'The type of lock that I believe was fitted to the door was a type known as a Night Latch...These locks had been in use since Georgian times......Locks of this type were all able to lock the bolt back in the unlocked position'...until it was needed to be locked.

I have seen these sort of locks on several old buildings in Britain. They serve their purpose but aren't particularly efficient and can be easily manipulated. McCarthy, being a cheapskate, wouldn't have spent a shilling when sixpence would have done, and the fact that Prater barricaded her door shows how strong these locks were! Unless the builder or owner of the loft definitely had valuables to guard he probably had a Georgian night latch as well.

Hi Rosella, right but there's nothing about Reid's statement that indicates the door was that type of lock, imo it sound's like it's not or it would be a confusing way for him to describe it. I'm wondering if Michael has a source or if he is just assuming

[Rosella]

^ I'm not Michael obviously, but ...in Richard Whittington-Egan's 'Jack the Ripper: The Definitive Facts' he quotes Bob Hinton regarding the lock on Mary Kelly's door, which might also be pertinent to the lock on the loft.

'According to Abberline the lock was of the 'Spring bolt type'. That means it operated in the same manner as a Yale-type lock, in other words the door could be fastened securely by merely pulling the door to. The bolt would be shot home immediately.'

'The type of lock that I believe was fitted to the door was a type known as a Night Latch...These locks had been in use since Georgian times......Locks of this type were all able to lock the bolt back in the unlocked position'...until it was needed to be locked.

I have seen these sort of locks on several old buildings in Britain. They serve their purpose but aren't particularly efficient and can be easily manipulated. McCarthy, being a cheapskate, wouldn't have spent a shilling when sixpence would have done, and the fact that Prater barricaded her door shows how strong these locks were! Unless the builder or owner of the loft definitely had valuables to guard he probably had a Georgian night latch as well.

[RockySullivan]

Would love to see it if you get a chance Mike

[RockySullivan]

Thanks do you have a source for this?

[Michael W Richards]

The stables, and presumably the loft, weren't really abandoned just empty and disused. Arthur Dutfield had owned a business, A Dutfiield, van and cart builder, in the buildings at the top of the Yard, but he had moved to Pinchin St. (His name was still on the gates.)

He probably had used the stables in his business. However, a W Hindley, had a store or workshop up there for his sack manufacturing business. You wouldn't think he would have a loft, but you never know.

The "loft" in this case was the upstairs in the disused stable in the back of the yard as you say,... where an office door was found locked. Not bolted from the inside, but locked. That's easily explained when you know that many locks in the Victorian period were simply engaged or disengaged manually, meaning you could set the lock as you leave and the door would be locked when its closed.

[RockySullivan]

I read over reid's statement, and I'm not sure if he is referring to the loft in dutfield yard, or one nearby..does anyone know for sure?

[RockySullivan]

I like this idea. JtR is moving back to the latrine when cart enters. Poney stops. Driver goes to see body, sees it's a woman goes into the club.

Now, the front door of the club is locked, he probably has the key, but he might also walked along the building and entered by the kitchen door at the back which was ajar. Meanwhile, JtR leaves slowly by the gate.

But that ignores the whole mystery of the loft being bolted from the inside

[SirJohnFalstaff]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

I like this idea. JtR is moving back to the latrine when cart enters. Poney stops. Driver goes to see body, sees it's a woman goes into the club.

Now, the front door of the club is locked, he probably has the key, but he might also walked along the building and entered by the kitchen door at the back which was ajar. Meanwhile, JtR leaves slowly by the gate.

[RockySullivan]

I agree Rosella it doesn't quite make sense why the killer would lock himself in the loft. But if it was bolted from the inside this seems the only plausible explanation. If he was hiding in the johns why head for the loft, he would've headed outside. It seems he planned to escape through the loft and this means he was familiar with some sort of trap door or secret exit.