Pipeman interviewed and cleared

[Rosella]

We don't know where Jack was straight after Liz's throat was cut. Nobody knows. He could have scuttled off when he heard the sound of the pony and cart coming nearer but still some way off and Louis, who might have been adjusting the reins or something, didn't notice. He could have skulked about in the darkness of the yard or in the loft or the toilets.

I favour the toilets because (a) they were as black as the ace of spades (b) unlike the loft, they were within peering distance of what Louis D. was doing and therefore Jack could have walked swiftly out of the gates when Diemshutz rushed into the club, and (c) If a person from up the yard had come there in the interim he wouldn't be investigated. Everyone uses the toilet, and until everyone came running out of the club no-one up the yard knew there was anything wrong.

That's a bit different to the loft. If anyone from the cottages or printing office had noticed someone climbing the stairs to the verandah and the loft Jack would have been in a bit of trouble.

[RockySullivan]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

Maybe but if he wasn't already in the loft, why go lock himself instead of leaving once diemschutz arrived

[Rosella]

^Maybe Jack was lurking in the darkness of the latrines, which were a great deal nearer to the club and where Liz was lying that the loft, forge and workshop were.

[RockySullivan]

When Diemschutz entered the yard his Pony didn't shy until Stride's body was even with Diemschutz because when he stepped down he was right by her body. I don't think the pony shied because of the dead body, but because the Ripper was straight ahead of it, either in the shadows or already in the loft. This loft HAS to be the key to murder if it was locked from the inside. It either had a window, had a secret exit, trap door, or the ripper was still hiding inside when it was searched.

[RockySullivan]

Whether it was locked or bolted doesn't seem to be quite clear. I was just saying in a previous post that if it was bolted it really is a mystery as you can't undo a bolt from the inside.

I discovered that once when I was on holiday in Malaysia. A holiday companion had bolted my door from the inside without my knowing it and then left by the door leading to an adjoining room. When I got back and tried to use the card it was useless. A hotel employee had to swing outside from the next balcony to my balcony to get into my room to unbolt it!
Sorry for going off topic!

Judging by the drawings of these buildings at the bottom of Dutfield Yard the 'loft' on the taller building is accessed by steps and a verandah type arrangement. It doesn't seem to have windows does it? How could the workmen see to get supplies?

carring a lantern? wonder if we can get more info on outfield and a list of employees. an empty business is perfect for dismemberment...and you've got a cart straight to pinchin

[Rosella]

Whether it was locked or bolted doesn't seem to be quite clear. I was just saying in a previous post that if it was bolted it really is a mystery as you can't undo a bolt from the inside.

I discovered that once when I was on holiday in Malaysia. A holiday companion had bolted my door from the inside without my knowing it and then left by the door leading to an adjoining room. When I got back and tried to use the card it was useless. A hotel employee had to swing outside from the next balcony to my balcony to get into my room to unbolt it!
Sorry for going off topic!

Judging by the drawings of these buildings at the bottom of Dutfield Yard the 'loft' on the taller building is accessed by steps and a verandah type arrangement. It doesn't seem to have windows does it? How could the workmen see to get supplies?

[Pcdunn]

Right but like Rosella said Reid claims it was bolted from the inside.

I guess I was visualizing it wrong, then. Never mind...

[Rosella]

You mean like a tunnel? I don't know. Judging by the look of some of those workshops and other buildings in the slums of London, they look as if they've been erected at a cost of 10 bob each. They'd be lucky to have foundations, let alone cellars leading into other cellars!

[RockySullivan]

"Dutfield's Yard


Dutfield's Yard as depicted in Famous Crimes, Past and Present, Harold Furniss 1903.
Murder site of Elizabeth Stride, 30th September 1888.
A narrow yard between Nos.40 (the International Working Men's Educational Club) and 42 Berner Street. The entrance to the yard was approx. 9 feet wide, with a pair of wooden gates which provided access. Each gate was approx. 4 feet 6inches wide. The left gate was fitted with a wicket (a small door) to be used when the gates proper were closed. Lettered in white paint on the gates was "W. Hindley, Sack Manufacturer" and "A. Dutfield, Van and Cart Builder". Arthur Dutfield had actually moved his part of the business to 10-18 Pinchin Street two years prior to the murder[1] . The cart making business was located next to an unused stable on the west side if the yard. Also on the west side was the sack manufacturer. On the north side, on the right as you entered the gates, was the Worker's Club. On the south side were three artisan's dwellings converted from older buildings. On the left of the entrance were terraced cottages occupied by cigarette makers and tailors.
Stride's body was discovered about 10-15 feet along the northern side of the yard, just before the door of the club, in front of a cellar ventilation grate."

Remember that cart that was abandoned and parked on Pinchin near the torso dump site? A cellar ventilation grate...could the loft have had a way to access the cellar?

[RockySullivan]

A YouTube I found, gets some details like the Yard being paved wrong, but is interesting. The taller building, I have just read from 'JTR Location Photos, the Whitby Collection' housed the sack business.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5TeLtpF2j8

The smaller building was referred to on Goad's Fire Insurance Map of 1892 as a Forge. That would probably have been used by Dutfield, who was a wheelright. However, he'd moved remember, when Stride was killed.

Moved to Pinchin, you say? Where about do you know? Close to the arch where the Torso was found I wonder?

[Rosella]

A YouTube I found, gets some details like the Yard being paved wrong, but is interesting. The taller building, I have just read from 'JTR Location Photos, the Whitby Collection' housed the sack business.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5TeLtpF2j8

The smaller building was referred to on Goad's Fire Insurance Map of 1892 as a Forge. That would probably have been used by Dutfield, who was a wheelright. However, he'd moved remember, when Stride was killed.

[RockySullivan]

One other idea might be if a confederate locked the door behind Jack after he had escaped, then went out and mingled with the crowd. I know it doesn't work if we presume Jack worked alone, but it is an alternative explanation to your question.

Right but like Rosella said Reid claims it was bolted from the inside.

[Pcdunn]

Was the door relocked after him?

Unless Reid was completely wrong, the killer seems to have escaped through a locked loft. If this was the way he escaped, he was probably familiar with the loft and there was some type of secret exit inside. Right? I mean how else could it be locked from the inside with no inside? Unless he was hiding in a box inside that the police never searched..it sounds like there was a trap door or something that led either up or down or into a connected building? Unless there were windows and he climbed out a window up onto a rood like Trevor suggests...but wouldn't the police realize a window could be exited through? Is there also a chance that a key could lock the loft from the outside? Wish we had more info on this

One other idea might be if a confederate locked the door behind Jack after he had escaped, then went out and mingled with the crowd. I know it doesn't work if we presume Jack worked alone, but it is an alternative explanation to your question.

[Rosella]

The stables, and presumably the loft, weren't really abandoned just empty and disused. Arthur Dutfield had owned a business, A Dutfiield, van and cart builder, in the buildings at the top of the Yard, but he had moved to Pinchin St. (His name was still on the gates.)

He probably had used the stables in his business. However, a W Hindley, had a store or workshop up there for his sack manufacturing business. You wouldn't think he would have a loft, but you never know.

[RockySullivan]

It's described as a lock in one description and a bolt somewhere else. If it was a bolt then it truly is a locked room mystery because you can't undo a bolt from the outside.

If this loft was properly built then it might have had a trapdoor. Most of the English lofts I've seen are just the upper halves of small barns, used for storage and are accessible only by ladder. They don't usually have doors.

However, if Dutfield had been keeping hay, oats and other supplies there I can understand the necessity for a door in that locale!

Didn't anyone bother to get in touch with whoever owned these abandoned buildings after the murder, whether Arthur Dutfield or someone else, to supply a key? The police seem to have been a darn sight quicker in forcing the door to this loft that they were to be at Miller's Court!

If there was a trap door and it was a bolt, that definitely suggests the murder used this route to escape. And if so it doesn't it indicate the killer was likely well acquainted with the loft in Dutfield yard? Who was in charge of the loft? Was the loft used by the club or another building? What are the abandoned buildings you speak of Rosella? A great example of poor police work, policemen really are bumbling idiots, the whole lot of them. If Reid haddn;t noted how strange this was I don't think we'd ever have heard of it. Unless they were investigating and chose to downplay this...but then why would Reid mention it in passing?