Pipeman interviewed and cleared

[Rosella]

It's described as a lock in one description and a bolt somewhere else. If it was a bolt then it truly is a locked room mystery because you can't undo a bolt from the outside.

If this loft was properly built then it might have had a trapdoor. Most of the English lofts I've seen are just the upper halves of small barns, used for storage and are accessible only by ladder. They don't usually have doors.

However, if Dutfield had been keeping hay, oats and other supplies there I can understand the necessity for a door in that locale!

Didn't anyone bother to get in touch with whoever owned these abandoned buildings after the murder, whether Arthur Dutfield or someone else, to supply a key? The police seem to have been a darn sight quicker in forcing the door to this loft that they were to be at Miller's Court!

[RockySullivan]

Unless Reid was completely wrong, the killer seems to have escaped through a locked loft. If this was the way he escaped, he was probably familiar with the loft and there was some type of secret exit inside. Right? I mean how else could it be locked from the inside with no inside? Unless he was hiding in a box inside that the police never searched..it sounds like there was a trap door or something that led either up or down or into a connected building? Unless there were windows and he climbed out a window up onto a rood like Trevor suggests...but wouldn't the police realize a window could be exited through? Is there also a chance that a key could lock the loft from the outside? Wish we had more info on this

[Rosella]

He probably didn't have time to think of all the different scenarios. As soon as it became obvious that the pony and cart were very near, Jack bolted. As he certainly didn't get out when the pony and trap were turning into the Yard (or Mr D. somehow didnt notice) he must have left Liz due to some other noise and left quietly a couple of minutes earlier while the pony and cart were up the road.

If he didn't do that, then he must still have been in that Yard and went somewhere, IMO to the nearest dark spot offering cover. He then probably joined the curious throng and afterward walked off.

[Robert St Devil]

Whereas, if he had remained quite near, in the black as night privies for example, he could have peered out, seen what Diemshutz was doing and then when Mr D went into into the club, made a run for the street.

Or he could have just killed Diemshutz if he felt like he was going to get caught. Could have stabbed him by his cart and made off before anyone discovered both bodies. If he was in the yard how can he be sure that adiemshutz isnt going to trap him in the yard by yelling for the attention of others

[RockySullivan]

I've probably mentioned this article before, but two sailors bearing similar descriptions were seen acting suspicious with Rose Mylett just before her death.

Mr. Charles Ptolomey, whose name was mentioned in our columns yesterday, as having seen two seamen accost the woman near where she was discovered dead, has received a visit from some officers of Scotland yard. Mr. Ptolomey, who is a night attendant at the Poplar Union, made the following statement to a reporter, yesterday:

"last night some detectives from Scotland Yard came to see me about this mysterious affair. They asked me if I could identify the sailors? I told them I could pick the men out of a thousand. How I came to notice them was in this way: It was about five minutes to eight o'clock on Wednesday night, when I was going to my work. Upon going up England row (nearly opposite Clarke's yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose, and that was the reason I took so much notice of their movements. I shall always remember their faces, and could, as I say, pick them out of a thousand. I have been to the mortuary, and seen the deceased. She is the same woman, and she was sober when I saw her with the sailors."
Evening News, Dec 29, 1888.

Similar to Schwartz account!

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Would the killer go down as far as the abandoned stables in Dutfield's Yard though, after being disturbed? If you're looking for a way out you'd hardly go down a cul de sac. It would mean sneaking past those cottages and the printing office where the editor was sitting reading. If anyone had seen him surely it would have looked suspicious.

Whereas, if he had remained quite near, in the black as night privies for example, he could have peered out, seen what Diemshutz was doing and then when Mr D went into into the club, made a run for the street.

OR, since the poney and the cart are still there, he could wait in complete darkness until a small crowd assemble and sneak out, pretending to be one of the curious people.

[Wickerman]

Are there any books that go into depth on the Pipeman and BSman aspect of the stride murder?

I've probably mentioned this article before, but two sailors bearing similar descriptions were seen acting suspicious with Rose Mylett just before her death.

Mr. Charles Ptolomey, whose name was mentioned in our columns yesterday, as having seen two seamen accost the woman near where she was discovered dead, has received a visit from some officers of Scotland yard. Mr. Ptolomey, who is a night attendant at the Poplar Union, made the following statement to a reporter, yesterday:

"last night some detectives from Scotland Yard came to see me about this mysterious affair. They asked me if I could identify the sailors? I told them I could pick the men out of a thousand. How I came to notice them was in this way: It was about five minutes to eight o'clock on Wednesday night, when I was going to my work. Upon going up England row (nearly opposite Clarke's yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose, and that was the reason I took so much notice of their movements. I shall always remember their faces, and could, as I say, pick them out of a thousand. I have been to the mortuary, and seen the deceased. She is the same woman, and she was sober when I saw her with the sailors."
Evening News, Dec 29, 1888.

[RockySullivan]

Would the killer go down as far as the abandoned stables in Dutfield's Yard though, after being disturbed? If you're looking for a way out you'd hardly go down a cul de sac. It would mean sneaking past those cottages and the printing office where the editor was sitting reading. If anyone had seen him surely it would have looked suspicious.

Whereas, if he had remained quite near, in the black as night privies for example, he could have peered out, seen what Diemshutz was doing and then when Mr D went into into the club, made a run for the street.

How does it explain the locked from inside though? Its very strange, but almost makes you think there was some kind of secret exit inside the loft?

[Rosella]

Would the killer go down as far as the abandoned stables in Dutfield's Yard though, after being disturbed? If you're looking for a way out you'd hardly go down a cul de sac. It would mean sneaking past those cottages and the printing office where the editor was sitting reading. If anyone had seen him surely it would have looked suspicious.

Whereas, if he had remained quite near, in the black as night privies for example, he could have peered out, seen what Diemshutz was doing and then when Mr D went into into the club, made a run for the street.

[Robert St Devil]

TREVOR. Rooftops escape? I read on voicesofbro dmo r com of an 1888 escape by an "F.M.", a 24 year old man wh was able to escape by vaulting the wall... like the opening scene of CASINO ROYALE. Said he had the strength in his legs to jump six feet off a scaffold and catch onto a partitioned wall with his knees. I was trying to find out if James Kelly buddy ever eacaped.

[RockySullivan]

If the loft was indeed locked from the inside there would have to be another way out. If Trevor's hand-me-down witness sighting of a man on the roof was true (and I'm both intrigued and sceptical in equal measure on that one) you'd be looking at some kind of 19th century free runner with knowledge of (and access to) the buildings around Dutfields Yard.

Inspector Reid claims it was locked from the inside. Unless he's mistaken, wouldn't the police have investigated how one would have escaped from inside a locked loft? I wonder who was in charge in the loft?

[Trevor Marriott]

If the loft was indeed locked from the inside there would have to be another way out. If Trevor's hand-me-down witness sighting of a man on the roof was true (and I'm both intrigued and sceptical in equal measure on that one) you'd be looking at some kind of 19th century free runner with knowledge of (and access to) the buildings around Dutfields Yard.

What we don't know is the layout at the bottom of Dutfields Yard. I don't know if this account is true or not, but if the killer was disturbed by LD then he could not go out via the front gates so where else could he go, back into the club if that is where he originally came from, or down to the bottom of the yard and up onto the roofs.He wouldn't necessarily need knowledge of Dutfields Yard he would be looking for a quick escape in some way.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Bridewell]

In this link to Begg's book there is something I'd never seen mentioned before. Inspector Reid claims at the inquest that a door of the loft was found locked from the inside, and when it was forced no one was found inside. This is very strange. Could the killer have hid in the loft and had some escape route? Was there some sort of way out the police didn't recognize?

If the loft was indeed locked from the inside there would have to be another way out. If Trevor's hand-me-down witness sighting of a man on the roof was true (and I'm both intrigued and sceptical in equal measure on that one) you'd be looking at some kind of 19th century free runner with knowledge of (and access to) the buildings around Dutfields Yard.

[RockySullivan]

Are there any books that go into depth on the Pipeman and BSman aspect of the stride murder?

[RockySullivan]

Trevor, personally I don't care for you...but your post kinda makes me want to read your book...as much as I think the stolen organs theory is crackpot. how come it's only on kindle?