Dutfield's Yard Video

[richardh]

Rob, Do you mean the gate? (the one with the Dutfield's Yard signage?)

Great work Richard.

Now, this is a big ask : is it possible for you to show one of the doors ajar in the way it would be if someone were hiding behind it, allowing for the width of the pony and cart?

[Dr. John Watson]

Thank you for the kind comments and encouragment.
Question:

Is the grating in the right place? (it is according to Hutchinson's Dutfield's yard photo of 1909).
What about the toilet block?
Should the vids be silent or 'talkies'?
Should the vids be B/W and scratched or clean and coloured (or both)?

And yes, once I've finished on Dutfield's Yard I will start on the next location. I think I'll not revisit Miller's Court yet as I've done lots on that location already. Maybe Hanbury? what do you think?

Richard! You've done a fantastic job! For the first time, I could actually enter the yard and walk around - and I still don't know how you managed to do that with only a bare-bones map and a photo taken from the street! I'm amazed at the accuracy and detail of your model, even to the loo. Frankly, there's not much I would change, except perhaps the location of the grating: It seems to me one of the witnesses (either constable or doctor) recorded that Stride's feet as almost touched the edge of the open gate, and that the grating was close to her head. I tried to picture her body in that position, and I wonder if the grate shouldn't be a little further away from the door and closer to the open gate? I'll try to find that testimony, along with her height, and see if that helps. I personally like the black and white version, although color would certainly enhance things; why not do a colorized version, then leave it up to the viewer to photo-shop a black-white version if desired? I would also lighten it up and make it a daylight view. As for adding sound, I wouldn't, and I would think clean instead of scratched. For your next project, I'd vote for Hanbury - I don't think anyone has gotten that exactly right, especially the position of the body vis-a-vis the steps and fence. I've always thought the witness who sat on the door sill fixing his shoe couldn't see the body because the open door blocked his view of the area between the steps and fence. Although the victim's feet likely protruded beyond the steps, they would have been nearly invisible in the early morning darkness unless you made a point of looking.

Forgive the long-winded post - your skill and attention to accuracy and detail assures that whatever project you undertake, it will be a great success.

John

[Damaso Marte]

Thank you for the kind comments and encouragment.

I have managed to narrow the yard and still maintain a match with goad's maps - I have to admit that I was a bit off with the positioning of the buildings on the right hand side. Also I have adjusted the height of the buildings.

Question:
Are you happy with the doors/windows configurations of the left & right yard buildings?
Is the grating in the right place? (it is according to Hutchinson's Dutfield's yard photo of 1909).
What about the toilet block?
Should the vids be silent or 'talkies'?
Should the vids be B/W and scratched or clean and coloured (or both)?

I'll get to work on ver2 which will improve the textures and add proper doors and windows in place of the (temporary) shutters.

And yes, once I've finished on Dutfield's Yard I will start on the next location. I think I'll not revisit Miller's Court yet as I've done lots on that location already. Maybe Hanbury? what do you think?

definitely talkie

[Dr. John Watson]

Great work Richard.

Now, this is a big ask : is it possible for you to show one of the doors ajar in the way it would be if someone were hiding behind it, allowing for the width of the pony and cart?

Good point, Robert. Hearing the approach of the horse and cart, I've always pictured the killer flattening himself against the wall, pushing the right-hand gate away from the wall perhaps 5-6 inches, and slipping sideways into the opening as far as possible. Diemschutz's attention was fixed on Stride's body, and in the darkness he likely wouldn't notice the killer's profile against the dark wall. The width of the cart would be important to know, I guess, but if Jack was interrupted by Diemschutz (as I believe he was), he could have pushed the gate slightly open to conceal himself after the cart had passed through. Perhaps it was this movement, and not the presence of the body, that caused Diemschutz's pony to shy away.

John

[The Good Michael]

It is my opinion that Dutfield's Yard is the most important piece to iron out. The more we understand its dimensions and little hideyholes and passages, the more we may lose any certainty we may have had that the same killer of Nichols, Chapman and others wasn't at work here. Also, one could also conjecture the ease with which a club member or cottage-dweller (often the same) could have mingled, washed up a bit, and mingles again. Or how someone could have killed, heard a cart approach and easily avoid discovery. I eagerly look forward to the refinements and suggest that Richard should present his model(s) at the JTR conference. This kind of thing is groundbreaking.

Mike

[richardh]

Couldn't the killer have hidden himself in the privy toilets or even just in the dark spot between the toilets and the back of the No.42? that way he could slip out of the yard between the stationary cart and No42 while the cart driver's attention was on the body.

Good point, Robert. Hearing the approach of the horse and cart, I've always pictured the killer flattening himself against the wall, pushing the right-hand gate away from the wall perhaps 5-6 inches, and slipping sideways into the opening as far as possible. Diemschutz's attention was fixed on Stride's body, and in the darkness he likely wouldn't notice the killer's profile against the dark wall. The width of the cart would be important to know, I guess, but if Jack was interrupted by Diemschutz (as I believe he was), he could have pushed the gate slightly open to conceal himself after the cart had passed through. Perhaps it was this movement, and not the presence of the body, that caused Diemschutz's pony to shy away.

John

[richardh]

Thanks John that was a very nice comment.

I put the grating there because I used the Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard 1909 photo as my guide. Here's the merged image for reference:



What I can do is place a reference body (like the wooden positioning mannequin I used in the Miller's Court models). That might actually be an interesting experiment.

except perhaps the location of the grating: It seems to me one of the witnesses (either constable or doctor) recorded that Stride's feet as almost touched the edge of the open gate, and that the grating was close to her head. I tried to picture her body in that position, and I wonder if the grate shouldn't be a little further away from the door and closer to the open gate?

[richardh]

Thanks Mike for the great comment.
The reason I want to get this right is because I have always had difficulty imagining the scenes and the immediate environments and I think that to have a clear picture in the mind's eye of each of the scenes and surroundings will help my (our) understanding immeasurably. But of course the models need to be accurate or else it defeats the objective.

I could do with some info on the street (and yard) lighting. I know there was one gas lamp in the yard but where? If I can add realistic lighting and then turn the sun off we might get a good interpretation of light conditions on the night of the murder.

It is my opinion that Dutfield's Yard is the most important piece to iron out. The more we understand its dimensions and little hideyholes and passages, the more we may lose any certainty we may have had that the same killer of Nichols, Chapman and others wasn't at work here. Also, one could also conjecture the ease with which a club member or cottage-dweller (often the same) could have mingled, washed up a bit, and mingles again. Or how someone could have killed, heard a cart approach and easily avoid discovery. I eagerly look forward to the refinements and suggest that Richard should present his model(s) at the JTR conference. This kind of thing is groundbreaking.

Mike

[anna]

What a great video..nice work !!!

Gives you the feel of actually being there and having a good look around.

I enjoyed it very much.

ANNA.

[Robert]

H Richard

It's difficult to get inside his mind, given that his decision may have been a split second one. Logically, if he was going to go into the toilets then the thing to do would have been to leave the knife by the body and try to remove any blood in the toilets (might not have been much blood on him). If he was going to hide behind the gate and, if necessary, fight off Diemschutz then he'd have retained his knife. But it's impossible to get into his mind.

[sepiae]

That is excellent, richardh !
And the commentary isn't disturbing at all.
I'm also quite blown by the dimensions.
Thanks so much for this

[SirJohnFalstaff]

One question: how hard would it be to re create the lighting conditions of that night in 1888?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Sir John

One question: how hard would it be to re create the lighting conditions of that night in 1888?

Yes I have to say that was partially in my mind when I asked in post #12

wonder if it'd feel much more confined in the dark?

It's not just that I wonder how close and claustrophobic the place might appear, for example to Diemschutz, in the 1888 lighting conditions, but also I'm wondering just how much Israel Schwartz might have been able to see on the threshold of the yard...or for that matter, exactly how much other witnesses might have been able to see, either passing by the yard, or through it...could they have seen a body for example?

Perhaps we're asking the impossible of Richard though...I guess it's all about light sources though, and that could be tricky...

All the best

Dave

[richardh]

I've been working on the model of Berner St. / Dutfield's Yard. I've now got the yard to the correct proportions - length/width/height.

Over the last few days I have been working on getting the model accurately replicated against the known images of the area. As a sort of side project I wanted to get that building in the background (the Goods Depot on Gowers Walk) to feature accurately in the model rather than just have a couple of roof apices sticking up the the background of the yard.

I've used the images (below) to plot and build the model and I was pleased to be able to get all views to line up nicely.

So:
a) Is the aerial shot of the Goods Depot (Rob Clack posted on another thread) Rob placed a dot (green) in the aprox location of the yard (yard out of shot). I've put on two dots (red & Yellow) to aid tracking from image to image.
b) Is the 'God View' showing the map that I had to stitch together with the model on top. Red & Yellow dots are marked again.
c) Is the photo taken down Fairclough St. showing the Goods Depot in the background. My model (yellow dot) is nicely lined up. Note the red dot is just out of frame view (as it was in the actual camera photograph).
d) Is the view into Dutfield's Yard. it is very close to the Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard 1900 shot which you can see VERY faintly in (d2). It is ghosted because I didn't want to use the actual image due to possible copyright infringement but I also wanted to show how close the model is to the photo. Note the red dot of the Goods Depot is exactly in the right place.

I think the red dot apex is the correct apex we see in the background of the Dutfield's Yard photo. There is a brick wall structure between the two apices (red dot apex and the one to its left) and the same brick wall structure can be seen in (a1) next to the red dot apex. I think the view of the depot on Fairclough Street is of the yellow apex although it's not really that important.




[Link below opens up the same image only bigger]
http://autumnofterror.com/imgDutfields/1321S.jpg



I'll have a version 2 video in about a week which will be vastly improved and also explore the stables and the back of the workingman's club etc.

[richardh]

What's this?

In the Hutchinson Dutfield's Yard photo, I need someone to explain what this is (circled in yellow)



I know that there was a fanlight above this door. My problem is that this 'ledge' (circled yellow) looks (to me) to be positioned above the club's side door. If is is, then the door would only measure 4' 5" (from the step to the 'ledge' measures 4'5"). Obviously this is rather a short door! So I'm guessing that this 'ledge' isn't what i think it is. Or is it?

any offers?