What's the compelling feature?

[Fisherman]

First and foremost, Michael, you hit the head on the nail when you write:

"We do not have a situation that requires Jack as an answer".

As for your bid: "Surely a very likely scenario if the two were acquainted, and even if he intended to straighten her out as a stranger for refusing his advances", I think that you may be right - but the probability that they were aquainted is the better alternative, since she would not have been to keen on going inside the yard with a total stranger that had just manhandled her. If it happened, he would probably have forced her in there, and then she would have resisted if I am not mistaken. Moreover, she would not have taken her cachous out in that kind of a threatening scenario, would she?

All suggestions that it was Jack and that he was interrupted must of course ponder the fact that it seems that the interruption came at that very split second when he slit her throat, taking away some of the usual Ripperish ferociousness of the cut, and leaving us with a comparatively shallow one.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Ben,But until the point where BS allegedly committed murder he had nothing to fear from anyone's imminent return, as I explained the other day. He could simply have walked away leaving Stride bruised and shaken, but alive, and he need have feared no further retribution for doing so.

But what if he's Jack the Ripper hell bent on murdering Stride?

I know we have had the argument to the effect that the Ripper would not have acted in such a fashion, but to be fair we don't know how the Ripper would have reacted to resistance from one of his victims, there is no precedent. Don't get me wrong, I personnaly believe that Stride's murder was a domestic for want of a better word, but the Ripper can not be ruled out on the grounds that he was up and active that night.

PS

Kidney has to be a contender

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Hi Jeff, Fisherman,

Im not opposed to Jack having known some, or perhaps all of the Canon. They all lived at one time in Spitalfield I believe, and if Jack was a night frequenter, it seems quite possible they would have at least seen each other around.

I dont know that acquainted though needs to extend to friend, lover or regular customer,.. and as Fisherman pointed out which I agree with, there seems to be an indication that Liz and her killer, or at least Liz and BSM, were not unfamiliar with each other. His grabbing her leading her into the street might be that familiarity at work.

I think the circumstantial evidence suggests that dire need prompted the women taking men into dark corners while the murders were occurring, so we dont need to assume he kept getting them to do that because they knew him.

With Liz, we would have a very simple explanation for all the circumstances in Lizs case, as far as Im concerned, if BSM at all resembled Kidney, and we could place Kidney at that scene at 12:45am. I think that kind of relationship would answer a lot, the staying in the location despite being "tossed" to the ground, the idea that she would go into the dark yard with him after that, the cashous, and the single cut,....indicating someone wanted her dead or had hatred for her.

What if BSM could be Kidney, and he learned she had told her lodging house friends that she wasnt coming home that night, and that she maybe had a new man in her life? Or someone who is very close with Kidney and drunk, finding her waiting for her new man while his friend Michael is brokenhearted.

Just supposin...but I do think that fits the circumstances better than "Jack" ....who I do not believe Kidney was.

Cheers and best regards.

[Observer]

Hi Jon

Hi Observer

I can only attempt to answer your last question:

Why no mutilations - this is one of the facts that make BS man even more likey to have been her killer. BS Man saw Schwartz hurrying away after his initial assault upon Stride, the most obvious conclusion to reach from this would be that help would be arriving,there were three coppers nearby.BS Man knew he didn`t have the four minutes to mutilate - only BS Man would have known this. If Jack turned up after BS Man had gone he would not have been aware of Schwartz running for help.So, in a perverse bit of reasoning BS Man had to have been her killer,and the lack of mutilations explained ?

Yes, and the fact that he was no Jack the Ripper, Micheal Kidney perhaps?

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Seems we both see a possible ex-lover connection here Observer.

It would satisfactorily answer a bunch of questions, but.....is BSM a candidate for Kidney physically? Or would we need for him to arrive after Schwartz and BSM?

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer

But what if he's Jack the Ripper hell bent on murdering Stride?

Then, by going on to complete the Double Event he's also multiplying by a factor of "N" the number of witnesses who saw him that night; he's staying out on the streets where he knows the police, in increased numbers, will be out looking for him; he also commits the cardinal sin of offering a potential link to a victim. In so doing, he creates a situation whereby inquiries into either Stride's or Eddowes' story might lead to his capture (more likely Stride's, if he was known to her).

He compounds this by killing again that night, effectively cementing Stride's murder as one half of a Double "Ripper" Event. Why do this, when he could have "silenced" Liz with a bog-standard throat-cut, thereby throwing some suspicion away from hers being a "Ripper" murder, and walked away to kill (and mutilate) another day?

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi ObserverThen, by going on to complete the Double Event he's also multiplying by a factor of "N" the number of witnesses who saw him that night; he's staying out on the streets where he knows the police, in increased numbers, will be out looking for him; he also commits the cardinal sin of offering a potential link to a victim. In so doing, he creates a situation whereby inquiries into either Stride's or Eddowes' story might lead to his capture (more likely Stride's, if he was known to her).

He compounds this by killing again that night, effectively cementing Stride's murder as one half of a Double "Ripper" Event. Why do this, when he could have "silenced" Liz with a bog-standard throat-cut, thereby throwing some suspicion away from hers being a "Ripper" murder, and walked away to kill (and mutilate) another day?

But what about blood lust clouding his view Sam?Also looking at Chapmans murder I'd say he's a risk taker. Perhaps subconciously he wanted to be apprehended. I don't know, I think it was Kidney.

Hi Mike

Seems we both see a possible ex-lover connection here Observer.

It would satisfactorily answer a bunch of questions, but.....is BSM a candidate for Kidney physically? Or would we need for him to arrive after Schwartz and BSM?

Cheers

Is there a description of Kidney anywhere? I know there is a line drawing

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Maybe Im wrong about the potential for Kidney as Jack.

Pure fiction, but I think a decent story.....

He is a gentile, he may have come across "his" woman....."I think she liked me better than any other man"...waiting for a date with a Jew outside a Jewish Socialists Club...lets say he is anti-semetic, as were many gentiles in these neighbourhoods, and he blames the Jew for turning Liz's head, forcing him to have to kill her due to the shame of an ex maybe leaving him for a Jew, and her wanton ways, perhaps seeing this Jewish man on the side for while first.

He finds her, she is insolent, he is furious and disgusted with her, cuts her throat where he finds her, and leaves. He walks for 10 -15 minutes, then finds an unfortunate hanging about. Still steaming after his encounter, he decides tonight will be a Ripper night, although perhaps he didnt set out to kill at all...until learning of Liz's debauchery.

He does what Jack does with Kate, goes home with the bag of goods, then decides Liz being killed on Jewish property might be a good thing....run those socialist Jews out of the neighbourhood....hell, they might as well have killed her themselves, having forced him to do it by taking his woman.

He goes back out with an apron piece in his pocket...nobody takes notice of him, he's a local fella and out at night often, and finds one of the most concentrated sections of Jewish residents, The Model Dwellings off Goulston and its surrounds, and he tosses the apron down and crouching near it he writes on the wall " The Juewes/Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing".....mispelling the word Jew due to his literacy and lack of concern how the word is spelled, so he just spells phonetically, and using the word "will" because the blame that he alleges they will avoid has not become public knowledge yet....it is something they "will" avoid blame for.

As I said, not a totally disfunctional story, for Liz's and Kates murder anyway, and the GSG. But without anything I know of as real evidence to support it.

Cheers all.

[Ben]

Hi Obsever,

Here's a contemporary sketch of Kidney:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=11&pos=-464

[Observer]

Hi Ben

Thanks for that

I like the neckerchief, I wonder if it's red coloured?

all the best

Observer

[Ben]

Could well be, Observer!

Seems the neckerchief was the in-look in those days, with the necks of Tom Sadler and John Kelly being similarly adorned.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Thanks for that picture link Ben.....I think youve solved this my friend. By that image it is almost undeniable.

She was killed for her lack of taste in men.

On to the next...

Cheers amigo.


ps....youve answered my question about the physicality of BSM and Kidney though.

[Observer]

Three men in a boat

Kidney, Sadler, Kelly

What about the saucy Jack letter? Sailors were refered to as saucy were they not?

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer,

But what about blood lust clouding his view Sam?Also looking at Chapmans murder I'd say he's a risk taker.

Ah, now you're invoking the "Jack would have behaved like that" argument - alluded to in your earlier post I appreciate that you're playing the Devil's Advocate here, by the way - and, wearing that particular hat, you raise an interesting point. However, it was one thing to attack a stranger in Hanbury Street with the police on "Black Alert", but quite another to have killed someone in Dutfield's Yard then stayed out for up to an hour with the police on "Red Alert" and aware of the fact that a killer was on the streets that very night.

[c.d.]

The reward for information leading to Jack's arrest had not been issued yet when Schwartz came forward with his story. Is that correct?

c.d.