What's the compelling feature?

[Ben]

If not, I will keep bombarding you till you give in or take the shape of Casebook´s laughing stoc.

Don't you dare threaten me, you hateful subhuman sickening disgrace.

If you pathetically imagine you can "bombard" me, keep blustering away, and I'll "bombard" you with greater force as I always do. You are not pinning a "cutaway" on Schwartz's man with no evidence. Even if an expert turned up and told me that a panda costume counts as a cutaway, you still don't get to place a cutaway on the suspect because the evidence is 100% not there. Bad luck for you. Rotton beastly luck.

If a cutaway doesn't have tails, then a Victorian man observing it at a distance in darkended conditions will not refer to it as a cutaway. If you're claiming that the "cutaway" in the photograph looked anything like the jacket worn by Schwartz's man, then you're on to an even sillier losing wicket, since it resembled the loose-fitting jacket worn by Lawende's man! That's essentially another one of your "outs" gone, for if the experts chime in and say that the sort of jacket featured in that photograph counts as a cutaway (and one that would be readily distinguished as such), it will be apparent immediately that Lawende's man could have worn such a garment.

Heads I win, tails you're screwed, basically.

Again, we can either accept the actual definition or some nonsense you cooked up from nowhere.

[c.d.]

If he had the urge to kill, he'd probably passed the point of no return by then, and even if he hadn't, it would have been very problematic if Stride had recognised him again. Any protestations on his part that it was "just a normal street tussle" (etc) would have dashed if he was paraded before other ripper witnesses as a consequence.


I don't see what the BS man would have to fear from witnesses since no one saw the Ripper in the act of committing murder. Talking to a prostitute, even one who is killed shortly thereafter, is not a crime.

I think that saying that he was past the point of no return is a big leap.

c.d.

[Ben]

I don't see what the BS man would have to fear from witnesses since no one saw the Ripper in the act of committing murder.

Wouldn't have mattered. If enough witnesses identified the same individual, there would obviously have been trouble. But I've never suggested that this was the overriding reason. More likely, he wanted to kill Stride and acheived it, taking care to leave the scene before the witnesses returned with a policeman.

I think that saying that he was past the point of no return is a big leap.

I don't.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

If he had the urge to kill, he'd probably passed the point of no return by then, and even if he hadn't, it would have been very problematic if Stride had recognised him again. Any protestations on his part that it was "just a normal street tussle" (etc) would have dashed if he was paraded before other ripper witnesses as a consequence.

Hi CD,

But, as I pointed out yesterday to Ben, there would have been no reason to have paraded a "pavement jostler" before a string of Ripper witnesses - even if Stride had (a) been able to recognise him; (b) if she'd been bothered to bring a mere scuffle to the attention of the authorities; and (c) that the authorites would have done anything about it even if she had. They had other things on their plate at the time, that were of far graver consequence than a street-brawl (and I don't just mean the Ripper murders either).

It's pretty clear to me that he could simply have walked away, unless he was hell-bent on killing her.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

A physical assault on a prostitute would have been taken extremely seriously at that time in that environment. Douglas Cow was investigated purely because a woman didn't like the way she looked at him. Even if witness identifications weren't a concern, police exposure of that nature would have halted any further ripping activity for the forseeable future.

It's pretty clear to me that he could simply have walked away, unless he was hell-bent on killing her.

Which I've reason to believe he was.

All the best,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon
Stride had slight bruising, but what was the intention of Schwartz’s attacker? Was the attack premeditated? Did the assailant approach Stride with the full intention of killing her? If not, then I’d expect more injuries to Stride especially upon the face.

Schwartz did not describe the man holding a knife, to me the attack upon Stride as witnessed by Schwartz does not appear to be the behaviour of a man who intended to kill.

I could well be wrong though, could the attack upon Stride at 12:45 a.m. have escalated into murder? I think not.

One thing is certain though, there can be no doubt that the eventual murderer of Stride intended to kill her, her throat was severely cut, and if it was the work of the Ripper then why no mutilation?

Hi Observer

I can only attempt to answer your last question:

Why no mutilations - this is one of the facts that make BS man even more likey to have been her killer. BS Man saw Schwartz hurrying away after his initial assault upon Stride, the most obvious conclusion to reach from this would be that help would be arriving,there were three coppers nearby.BS Man knew he didn`t have the four minutes to mutilate - only BS Man would have known this. If Jack turned up after BS Man had gone he would not have been aware of Schwartz running for help.So, in a perverse bit of reasoning BS Man had to have been her killer,and the lack of mutilations explained ?

[Ben]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Jon.

Excellent post.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Ben,But until the point where BS allegedly committed murder he had nothing to fear from anyone's imminent return, as I explained the other day. He could simply have walked away leaving Stride bruised and shaken, but alive, and he need have feared no further retribution for doing so.

Sam and Ben

Forgive me for sticking me nose in as it was not addressed to me ..but doesn`t the fact that he did knife Stride when there seemed to be no reason to do so point to him being a psychopathic killer - rather than a street thug ?

[Jon Guy]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Jon.

Excellent post.

cheers Ben !!

Back at you regarding your point that even an assault on a prostitute was serious s##t, especially if he`s caught with a very sharp six inch blade on his person.

[perrymason]

Hi Jon,

As you know I favour the logic youre using regarding BS Man and his proximity to a woman killed within minutes, I dont know that BS would have any idea that there were cops nearby necessarily. Since both BS and Schwartz enter the scene around the same time, and there are no police around at that time, they both might have just arrived there.

I will say this though about Schwartz, his excuse for being on Berner St at 12:45am is extremely weak, he left his wife to move from Berner earlier in the day, and its strains credulity to imagine she wouldnt have moved their likley meager belongings already in that time. He also is Jewish...outside a Jewish Mens Club, approx a little over an hour after the meeting there had ended.

I wouldnt be surprised if what Schwartz describes actually took place inside the yard, and Schwartz is leaving the club via the side door to go out the yard gates, when he sees BSM try to take Liz out of the yard by hand. Wess convinces Schwartz its best if this didnt happen on their property,...or modifies the translation of Schwartz's story when assisting at the Police Station. Its possible Wess was the interpreter, I understand he was probably one for Goldstein.

Wess is also the very first Inquest witness...find me another case in these crimes where someone takes the stand first that didnt know the dead woman, didnt find the dead woman, and by his own account had left before the murder occurred.

We only have the club members statements to assure us the yard was empty from 12:40 on.

Cheers.

[perrymason]

Its kind of freeing when no-one pays attention to what you're saying..so I can throw in that there is no reason to suggest that BSM had no reason to be violent with Liz....he was drunk, she apparently was uncooperative, and he is made to look like a mugger in front of two witnesses at least.

People dont need good reasons for violence when they are not sober...just provocation. Making him look bad might be plenty.

So many assumptions.....and one cut that was only to kill.

Cheers.

[c.d.]

Its kind of freeing when no-one pays attention to what you're saying..so I can throw in that there is no reason to suggest that BSM had no reason to be violent with Liz....he was drunk, she apparently was uncooperative, and he is made to look like a mugger in front of two witnesses at least.

People dont need good reasons for violence when they are not sober...just provocation. Making him look bad might be plenty.

So many assumptions.....and one cut that was only to kill.

Cheers.

Yes, Michael, but look at the form that violence took. He didn't slap her around or stab her anywhere else in her body. He immediately went for a cut to the throat after being seen by witnesses. Doesn't that seem just a little bit out of the ordinary?

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Yes, Michael, but look at the form that violence took. He didn't slap her around or stab her anywhere else in her body. He immediately went for a cut to the throat after being seen by witnesses. Doesn't that seem just a little bit out of the ordinary?
c.d.

Exactly,C.D. !!

She was dragged back to the darkest part of the yard and dismissed her in a fashion that the Doctors noted that they knew where to cut

[Jon Guy]

Its kind of freeing when no-one pays attention to what you're saying..so I can throw in that there is no reason to suggest that BSM had no reason to be violent with Liz....he was drunk, she apparently was uncooperative, and he is made to look like a mugger in front of two witnesses at least.

People dont need good reasons for violence when they are not sober...just provocation. Making him look bad might be plenty.

So many assumptions.....and one cut that was only to kill.

Cheers.

I always read your posts, mate !!!

I was reading the other day about a copper who caught Peter Sutcliffe hiding in a bush with a screwdriver and hammer - the policeman took him in for been prepared for a burglary ( or something like that ) But you see my point.

[c.d.]

Exactly,C.D. !!

She was dragged back to the darkest part of the yard and dismissed her in a fashion that the Doctors noted that they knew where to cut

...and still managed to hold on to the cachous and the bag did not break.

c.d.