When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[Barnaby]

Hi BW
I was just thinking about that the other day. He didnt come forward voluntarily did he? Did the police ever check him out?

I guess the language thing could rule him out, unless he was lying about it.

So, fearing he was seen running from the crime, the logical thing to do would be to immediately go and kill someone else and then throw everyone off the trail by writing the "Juwes are not the men who will be blamed" message as a "It wasn't me!" diversion. That must be it!

[moonbegger]

Hi Moonbegger.

The problem with it being Schwartz is Swanson's report, that they ran as far as the railway arch. There is no railway arch in that direction.
Schwartz ran the opposite way.

So, let me ask you. How do you compare this press story with Swanson's report?

Hello john ,

I think we have 2 for and 2 against !
There is the "

the two latter running up into Commercial Road

." and the

" Railway Arch"

malarkey

And then we have the time issue

Quarter to one

coupled with the statement that the man chasing was

Not a member of their body

As for Swanson V Press .. I think the press have a lot more local knowledge .

moonbegger

[Michael W Richards]

Hi c.d.

Old Mike has already employed the use of an atomic clock to determine the exact timings of all witnesses involved in the Liz Stride case. I believe he has the TOD as 12:44 and 800,176,752,715 nanoseconds a.m. I don't reckon he's far out, I'd plump for a couple of nanoseconds either way.

Regards

Observer

Since Ive often quoted Blackwell's estimate, which allows for a cut to have been made between 12:46 and 12:56 by his remarks, I don't see the rational for the above. But Im happy to be blamed for Blackwells timimg, since it neatly fits with far more witness accounts than that of Israel Schwartz. Someone asked why would Israel lie about the circumstances, even if a member...as a favour to Wess, without his knowledge during the translated testimony, to help explain to his wife why he was so late checking to see if she needed some help, to avoid admitting he attended the meeting that night and maybe had a few ales, to avoid explaining how he and his wife came to reside in one of the cottages in the passageway before moving to his new address that day, to avoid stating that he was inside the passageway when he saw the altercation happen..which would incriminate someone attending the club that night, not some "passer-by", to avoid being seen as one of the "anarchists" of the club as perceived by the neighbors and the police.....I can think of many possibilities as to why. And I can see many reasonable reasons, from a members standpoint, why protecting the clubs reputation might also be self serving.

As to my dedication to timing in this particular case, only a fool would ignore the sizable discrepancies in the witness accounts and be blind to the fact that many accounts have no secondary verification. Some do. Some also had timepieces. Some guessed. Maybe some lied. Some had access to clocks.

I use the ones that had access to clocks and watches. Which should keep them within a 5-10 minute error range at worst. Why then do some accounts from men who had access to clocks differ from Louis's story by 20 minutes? 3 men from inside the club. And why if he arrived when he said he did, with horse and cart rattling down the cobblestones, was he not seen by Fanny Mortimer, whose corroborative account of Goldstein's walk past ensures us that she was indeed at her door during the final 10 minute interval before 1am.

Liz Stride was last seen at 12:35 by the most credible witness onsite during the time between 12:30 and 1am. No-one else has a corroborated account of seeing her on that street after that.

If you also recall that the passageway was said to be empty by at least 2 club witnesses, yet we hear from the neighbors that after Saturday night meetings low men were hanging about in that passageway until after 1am. Was'nt it raining earlier...and wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that some members might step out into the freshened air for a smoke and chat. The kitchen door was ajar...was that from people opening and maybe not quite closing it as they came and went through it?

Im hardly unreasonable with my statements about this case, im just more vocal about the points within because they are without marriage to a perceived solution....I don't see a "Ripper" after the Chapman murder, perhaps the Eddowes case too...so Im not spending anytime trying to justify one, nor do I see the need to try and sell one here.

If Liz Stride was killed in the passageway before 12:45 then Spooner, Heschberg, Kozebrodski and Gillen would all have been correct with the statements they made with respect to the time, made within an hour of the murder.

Just like to keep your "Observerpedia" data accurate.

[Wickerman]

It does sound like ( as Fisherman alluded ) corroboration for Schwartz's story ..

Moonbegger .

Hi Moonbegger.

The problem with it being Schwartz is Swanson's report, that they ran as far as the railway arch. There is no railway arch in that direction.
Schwartz ran the opposite way.

So, let me ask you. How do you compare this press story with Swanson's report?

[Wickerman]

But the secretary of the club, remember, claimed that the chasing man was not a member of the club.
If you are correct, then botch the chaser and the chased man WERE club members. Why did the secretary fail to recognize one man and falsely claim that the other was not a club member?

And would he not hear Diemschitz yelling for the police?

It does not pan out, does it?

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

Christer.
The Secretary is retelling a story he has received, not that he was a witness to this.
I believe he is saying that he cannot remember the name he was given, by whoever told him this. And, it was the opinion of whomever, that one of the men was not a club member, not the Secretaries opinion.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong...

***
Edit:
My take here, the Secretary did not witness this, he is retelling a story given him by a Mr. X.

Are we to understand that after Mr X told him this, the Secretary (Wess?) then looked through his club members list (why?), and after not being able to find the mans name, he forgets the name?
Is that likely?

Conversely, Mr X tells the secretary the story and Mr X then says, "I think the chaser was xxxxx, but he is not a member of the club".
It isn't Wess who is saying the man was not a member of the club, it is Mr X.
For Mr X to know this, surely Mr X must be a club member?

[c.d.]

The problem here is that we are dealing with estimates both in terms of the witnesses and time of death. Therefore it is impossible to rule out a scenario that has Liz's killer arriving after the B.S. man left the scene which is what I think happened. Yes, it is cutting it close (no pun intended) but still within the realm of possibility.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

O tempora . . .

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"We are speaking of Victorian times here, Lynn. . ."

Ah, I was wondering about that.

"And I do think that suddenly appearing knife goes to show he knew."

Or that the Star bloke knew how to conduct a colourful interview.

"Not that I am going to be able to prove it - itīs just how I read the whole thing."

Line forms to the right. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Yep, here it is:

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,.." Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Wickerman ,

But it was also stated that the time was about quarter to one , well before Diemschitz got back ?

Also Diemschitz was a Member , we don't know about Kozebrodski , only that he was in the Club all evening , Although the fact he was arrested along wit Diemschitz during a disturbance at the club a few months later after a meeting would suggest he was also a member .

The chasing man however , was not a member of their body .

It does sound like ( as Fisherman alluded ) corroboration for Schwartz's story ..

Moonbegger .

Kozebrodski was listed as a member according to the Morning Advertiser, I believe.

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Because this is obviously repeated second hand, it seems like a garbled account of someone watching Diemschitz & Kozebrodski run across Fairclough St. Whoever saw this must have assumed one was chasing the other, in actual fact they were together.

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could."
Diemschitz.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Kozebrodski.

Hello Wickerman ,

But it was also stated that the time was about quarter to one , well before Diemschitz got back ?

Also Diemschitz was a Member , we don't know about Kozebrodski , only that he was in the Club all evening , Although the fact he was arrested along wit Diemschitz during a disturbance at the club a few months later after a meeting would suggest he was also a member .

The chasing man however , was not a member of their body .

It does sound like ( as Fisherman alluded ) corroboration for Schwartz's story ..

Moonbegger .

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon.

If so, he would I am sure be right at home here in Casebook Forums.

Observer

Yes he would fit right in on here there are people on here who are armed with everything apart from the facts.

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. If Israel fled from one, he may be a coward, but with PM? Two?

Cheers.
LC

We are speaking of Victorian times here, Lynn - he would have made rather a flat figure either way. And I do think that suddenly appearing knife goes to show he knew.

Not that I am going to be able to prove it - itīs just how I read the whole thing.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?

Hi Pinkmoon.

If so, he would I am sure be right at home here in Casebook Forums.

Observer

[Abby Normal]

T
Or both if Schwartz was the murderer? Given that his account is out of kilter with that of the other witnesses, and that he ran from the scene of one of the murders, I've often wondered why he seems never to have been under serious consideration as a suspect.

Hi BW
I was just thinking about that the other day. He didnt come forward voluntarily did he? Did the police ever check him out?

I guess the language thing could rule him out, unless he was lying about it.

[lynn cates]

coward

Hello Christer. If Israel fled from one, he may be a coward, but with PM? Two?

Cheers.
LC