Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"Why list a possibility if you don't think it is probable?"

My son just got a diagnosis on an engine light on his car. Listed: one probability along with four possibilities.

It's being thorough.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

There is literally an infinite number of possibilities. So if he chose to mention this one, doesn't that seem to imply that he thought it could be probable?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

the real story

Hello CD. Thanks. Permit me to answer both questions at once.

Here are Swanson's words:

"I understand the Inspector to suggest that Schwartz' man need not have been the murderer. True only 15 minutes elapsed between 12.45 when Schwartz saw the man & 1.0 when the woman was found murdered on the same spot. But the suggestion is that Schwartz' man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted or was accosted by another man, & there was time enough for this to take place & for this other man to murder her before 1.0." ["Ultimate" pp. 123 & 4]

I beg to call your attention to the following:

1. It is not Swanson's opinion at all, but a suggestion by an inspector (Reid?).

2. Swanson is dealing ONLY with the time factor--it was physically possible for BSM to leave, Liz collect herself, find another man and for him to kill her.

But for some reason--unknown to me--his thinking here has been put for police theory. It was not.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Even if they are not Schwartz's words per se he is still citing them and there would seem to be tacit acceptance of this theory since he does not dismiss it out of hand.

As for the time factor, he is saying that YES, there was enough time for another killer or am I misreading that?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello CD. Thanks.

Schwartz? You mean the "Inspector"? No, I see no tacit acceptance. But you are right that he sees enough time.

Please recall that he refers to the entire theory as "the suggestion."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I meant Swanson not Schwartz.

Yes, it is a "suggestion." But again there has to be some basis for making that suggestion implying that it was not a 100% certainty that the B.S. man was her killer.

c.d.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, I see your line of reasoning here. But what of Liz? No chastisement for his inaction during the assault?

Cheers.
LC

No, if he was non-threatening enough to follow into a dark area for business then I imagine not. It is possible that the number of victims wasn't higher do to caution of those who solicited. So a non-threatening killer isn't going to break character to help his potential victim. That and he had a big knife on him going into a dark spot with a working woman. He had the advantage so why give it up? I'm also thinking perhaps her murderer gave her those cachous right before he struck. Misdirection to allow him to draw her focus and allow for little resistance. All speculation of course and I'm not proposing it as the case. Just trying to form a reasonable scenario out of the idea.

[lynn cates]

anomalies

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not sure why the Inspector made that suggestion. Perhaps he noted--as I do--all the anomalies in Israel's story. Swanson seems to be explaining the suggestion to those above him.

As I have said, IF the BSM story were real, THEN he killed Liz. But I am convinced that BSM did not kill Liz.

Draw the conclusion.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz

Hello DLDW. Thanks. Always good to try various scenarios.

I was referring to Liz. One would expect a "Hmmpff. A fine help you were."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not sure why the Inspector made that suggestion. Perhaps he noted--as I do--all the anomalies in Israel's story. Swanson seems to be explaining the suggestion to those above him.

Yes Lynn.
I think that Swanson is making this report for "upstairs", to be digested by Anderson, Warren & Mathews. In which case it would be risky for him to plant suggestions with his superiors which were of little consequence.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks. Always good to try various scenarios.

I was referring to Liz. One would expect a "Hmmpff. A fine help you were."

Cheers.
LC

Understandably so. Then perhaps the offer of cachous and the murder. I tend to agree that if the BSM thing occured then he killed her. Such little time to work with. Unless there was someone else unknown around. Hence the scenario. And no mutilations also. Cut and run. Not the sort of thing one wants to be involved in if they are "JTR". I think it satisfies everything. Not convinced on Stride one way or the other. It's muddled too much. Two things I do find compelling to "JTR" are 1 cut to the throat and positioning in relation to the enviroment. And as far as the topic of the thread is concerned, equally unhelpful.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?"

Home, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

I know we always refer to the Coroner's Inquest testimony, when available, as our principal source, but maybe what is said in these Inquests is not always correct?

Yes, I know the witness was a policeman, but I am intrigued as to why the first published 'Wanted' description in the press following the murder described 'Parcel-man' as wearing a "hard felt hat", as opposed to a deerstalker.

On October 1st, the Star published this description:

"Aged about 28, and in height 5ft. 8in. or thereabouts; complexion dark, and wearing a black diagonal coat and hard felt hat, collar and tie. He was of respectable appearance, and was carrying a newspaper parcel."


On October 19th, in his well known report Insp. Swanson also described PC Smith's suspect as wearing a "hard felt hat", not a deerstalker.


On November 12th, the Daily Telegraph published an official Police release describing suspects concerned in the Berner St./Mitre Square murders. PC Smith's suspect is as follows:

"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper."

Wouldn't you think that if the police wanted help from the citizenry that they would use specific terminology as opposed to generic?
How often is a deerstalker described as a 'hard felt hat'? Today, they are made from a wide range of materials, but not in the 19th century.

The Billycock hat, Derby, Bowler, are all known as "hard felt hats".
The man seen with Stride at the Bricklayers Arms wore a Billycock hat, ie; a hard felt hat.

PC Smith gave his evidence on October 5th, so anything in the press prior to that date would be of interest as to whether his suspect is described as wearing a deerstalker or a hard felt hat.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes. So he merely explains the suggestions of others.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

muddled

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Muddled? Yes, indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

navigation

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, I feel the tension. However, I don't think I can navigate without the inquest material.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, I feel the tension. However, I don't think I can navigate without the inquest material.

Cheers.
LC

The police had released an official description of PC Smith's suspect on Oct. 1st, carried by nine newspapers, and again on the 3rd it was carried by two. In each case the hat was "hard felt hat".
The Inquest testimony on the 5th (published on the 6th), is the first time we read about a deerstalker.
Yet, official police reports & releases after the 6th continue to read "hard felt hat".
Strange.