Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Not wishing to drift off topic, but weren't those whispers heard around 3.30? If so, perhaps a bit early for Cross and Paul?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn , I think Lilly used the Luggage train as her time reference .. which was later estimated as around 3.30ish . CrossMere estimates his time as around 3.40ish , plus Lilly does not say it all occurred at the same time . She does not offer a time frame , just what she heard .

It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distincly heard voices, but cannot say what was said

Its my opinion that the killer used the luggage train to Muffle out any sounds made by polly , then as the killer went to work on her , he hears or see's CrossMere turning the corner into the Row , and takes off . the whole episode " Luggage train & painful moan " up to " whispers beneath her window" could have taken as little as a few minutes .

But anyway I seem to be out on my own with that chestnut , so i'll leave it there ..

So back to my original question and topic of the thread ..

Of the two statements Schwartz made , (1) To the police , with his friend acting as interpreter , and (2) , to the press who also had an Interpreter on hand . Which one comes across as more coherent and plausible ?

I think the general consensus I am garnishing from most on the board is , it doesn't really matter what he said he saw, or how he said it he saw it , or if he even saw it at all , it wasn't the way he said it was !! Am I close

cheers

moonbegger

[Wickerman]

Hello Lynn,

Or it could also be interpreted that he wanted her to go with him...

Thats how I interpret the gesture, something like "your coming with me", and as she resisted, he pushed her down or she lost her balance.

[lynn cates]

version

Hello MB. Thanks.

I can accept Polly dying around 3.30--when the train passed.

Not sure about your take on Schwartz. IF he were truthful, the police version is the better of the two.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

I think the general consensus I am garnishing from most on the board is , it doesn't really matter what he said he saw, or how he said it he saw it , or if he even saw it at all , it wasn't the way he said it was !! Am I close

cheers

moonbegger

I dont like to speak for lynn because he's an awkard old bugger

But arnt we back again to the basic problem that what ever Schwartz said.. It went via an interpreter?

So we are all left with no alternative than to be causious with his precise details

THe only details we can rely on are Blackwells

He puts time of death at 12.50

So what ever else is probable...Schwartz witnessed Stride attack and Murder

Is it possible someone else killed Stride? ..Yes it is

But its simply not probable

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I dont like to speak for lynn because he's an awkard old bugger

But arnt we back again to the basic problem that what ever Schwartz said.. It went via an interpreter?

So we are all left with no alternative than to be causious with his precise details

THe only details we can rely on are Blackwells

He puts time of death at 12.50

So what ever else is probable...Schwartz witnessed Stride attack and Murder

Is it possible someone else killed Stride? ..Yes it is

But its simply not probable

Yours Jeff

PS I think Lynn is correct about the Nichols murder

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

Blackwell's time of death is simply an estimate not the exact time. There are simply too many questions that have to be answered if we want to conclude that the B.S. man was her killer.

The police at the time considered the possibility of another killer so obviously they didn't consider it improbable.

c.d.

[c.d.]

For a list of things that don't seem to jive with the B.S. man being her killer, please see post no. 415 in this thread.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello Jeff. Quite happy with both Blackwell's time as well as Polly's.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello CD.

"There are simply too many questions that have to be answered if we want to conclude that the B.S. man was her killer."

And the main one being Israel's veracity. Have you considered the possibility that one of the clubmen--Lave or Eygle (or even Wess)--caught a glimpse of the killing and so could be adamant about time (12.45 in the AF piece as also Schwartz)?

"The police at the time considered the possibility of another killer so obviously they didn't consider it improbable."

Police? Well, Swanson did. And his view, I suppose, is as good as Sir Charles and his secret society.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

You seem to be rapidly losing your famous objectivity. You are now at the point where you feel that anybody who does not lend credence to your views is either a liar or incompetent.

I can see no reason to disparage Swanson.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

compliment

Hello CD. Thanks.

Disparage? Not a bit of it. In fact, I complimented him. I said his views should be counted as equal to Sir Charles's.

But my point was that it is misleading to refer to "the police." It sounds like a consensus. But there was none.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Smiley-face.

Hello DLDW. And so he just stands there whilst this is occurring?

And BSM leaves right after Schwartz and PM, Liz ignores her "client," retrieves her cachous from a pocket, and THEN he strikes. perhaps he felt neglected?

Cheers.
LC

Hullo Lynn. So good to speak with you after such a long gap. Why should he do anything else? Especially if he had intent on her life. Sure, BSM leaves cause he's done his bit. He's a coward who has been witnessed abusing a woman, so he does what cowards do and cheeses it. Pipe/knife man had already legged it behind Schwartz. So it leaves her murderer. No, not neglected. If he had design on her life, he might have watched and waited to see if she expired. Never mind the practical and tactical aspects of lingering in the shadows. Say he was particularly non-threatening to perceive, would Stride have expected him to come to her assistance? She has been accosted and is rattled. He feigns consolation, what any good psycopathic serial killer would do to ensure the least amount of resistance, affording him the maximum opportunity given what had just transpired. I could continue to prattle but I am certain you get the particular line I am expounding upon. It is a hell of an occurence no doubt, but it is sound enough when viewed in the particular context. Ie the reasoning IS sound within those parameters. Wow, been away too long. Apologies to all and any.

[lynn cates]

chastisement

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, I see your line of reasoning here. But what of Liz? No chastisement for his inaction during the assault?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Blackwell's time of death is simply an estimate not the exact time. There are simply too many questions that have to be answered if we want to conclude that the B.S. man was her killer..

Yes i agree. However if we assume Goldstein passes down the street between 12,50 and 1 AM as is usually estimated, seen only by Fanny who was at her door 'No more than ten minutes' Then its what Fanny doesnt see that is important. Because if Stride was still alive and soliciting at this time it seems Improbable that Fanny would not have seen her.

Its Fanny NOT seeing Stride that gives the greatest support to Blackwell's estimate and holds all of the pieces with Browns and Schwartz time estimates together.

Stride being out of Fannys sight bleeding to death at 12.50 seems the most logical conclusion.

The police at the time considered the possibility of another killer so obviously they didn't consider it improbable.

c.d.

Well it was their job to consider ALL possibilities and its safe to assume that they did. Swanson was a capable and well seasoned Detective

Happy Easter

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

spot on

Hello Jeff.

"Stride being out of Fanny's sight bleeding to death at 12.50 seems the most logical conclusion."

Precisely. Well done.

Cheers.
LC