Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[lynn cates]

exercise

Hello CD. Thanks.

Considering is all well and good. In the end, however, reason must triumph.

Exercise? Ah, just did my yard and I ache. Be off with you, then, and enjoy!

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

But I dont think anything else can be determined from the mysterious sweets

Eureka! The word was "Jujubes" all along!

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."

Could this be emended to:

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure, AND TAKES OUT THE CACHOUS, the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."?

Cheers.
LC

Indeed, that is the point where I believe she handled the cachous. However, whether she took them out of her own pocket or, this 3rd man handed them to her as a gesture of compassion (and taking her off guard?), we can not know.
Whatever happened next was swift to be sure.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi DM

But despite being a defender of orthodoxy and the traditional C5, I'll defend the idea that Schwartz and Stride-as-Ripper-victim are incompatible

I generally find your postings both logical and thoughtful but I'm afraid I can't quite go all the way with you on this one...

Everyone (including serial killers) has their off-days...in fact it's possible that for JtR, each killing occured on an off-day, but that's really a subject for another thread.

If our Jack was a bit "impaired", (through alcohol or otherwise), prior to killing Liz, you also have to remember that the second victim that night was also far more than somewhat impaired - so JTR didn't have to be particularly cunning...

But also - what if the allegedly drunken gait witnessed by Schwartz happened actually to be the typically rolling gait of a sailor just landed? (not an uncommon sight perhaps in this particular area of London at that time)...and that peaked hat described by other witnesses? Begins to sound more interesting maybe?

All the best

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

what if the allegedly drunken gait witnessed by Schwartz happened to be the typically rolling gait of a sailor just landed? (not an uncommon sight perhaps in this particular area of London)

A far more common sight would be that of a common-or-garden geezer who just happened to be drunk. Besides - out of interest - do sailors really have a rolling gait when they land, or is that an urban myth?

[Wickerman]

.... But, inevitably, the posts begin where someone is trying to find a place for "Jack" and the reasoning becomes convoluted.

Perhaps I ask too much?

If we can find no place for 'Jack' then we can rule Stride out altogether as a Ripper victim.
I would quite happily shut 'Jack' out, except for the fact there was something in the order of 10-15 minutes unaccounted for after Schwartz fled the scene.
This is verified by Swanson.

Secondly, Stride had been in the company of a strange character "with weak eyes" that night at the Bricklayers Arms.
A 'strange character' with an "unnatural glare in his eyes" was seen outside the Britannia the night Mary Kelly was murdered.

I can't in all truth rule Stride out as a Ripper victim unless these issues are resolved somehow.

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello Jon. Thanks.

IF he gave her the cachous just before killing her, and IF we agree that her assailant was just behind her when she was killed, then he needed to creep around behind her whilst she was busy with the cachous.

Is that a comfortable speculation?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... Besides - out of interest - do sailors really have a rolling gait when they land, or is that an urban myth?

I think its all in the mind.
After a sea crossing to Sweden back in the 70's my wife and I experienced the feeling of the ground moving under our feet for several hours after we landed.
We were not walking funny, it was just a sense of balance 'thing' in the mind.

BS-man was likely either drunk, or walked with a limp.
The annoying thing for me about this description is the man with "an unnatural glare in his eyes" also walked with an "unusual gait".

See how everything comes together,... as clear as mud!

[lynn cates]

Seek, and ye shall find--maybe.

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"If we can find no place for 'Jack' then we can rule Stride out altogether as a Ripper victim."

I think my problem is in the "finding." I can (almost) see why "Jack" was first dreamed up. Several women killed, must have been one bloke, voila, Jack. But why go out of the way to "find" or make room for him?

"I would quite happily shut 'Jack' out, except for the fact there was something in the order of 10-15 minutes unaccounted for after Schwartz fled the scene."

You mean before Dimshits found the body? I am good with Liz dying around 12.45 and being found around 12.55--although there may have been a few minutes whilst the club chaps were deciding what to do.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

IF he gave her the cachous just before killing her, and IF we agree that her assailant was just behind her when she was killed, then he needed to creep around behind her whilst she was busy with the cachous.

Is that a comfortable speculation?

Not really, if you recall she fell on her side.

"Just turn around my dear, let me brush that mud off your jacket......"

[lynn cates]

the scene

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, indeed. But surely that is congruent with his being behind her? No face to face fracas was going on.

"Just turn around my dear, let me brush that mud off your jacket......"

". . . That's right, dear. It's on the side next the building. I'll just insinuate myself between your good self and the building. And mind you hold on to those cachous."

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hi DM



I generally find your postings both logical and thoughtful but I'm afraid I can't quite go all the way with you on this one...

Everyone (including serial killers) has their off-days...in fact it's possible that for JtR, each killing occured on an off-day, but that's really a subject for another thread.

If our Jack was a bit "impaired", (through alcohol or otherwise), prior to killing Liz, you also have to remember that the second victim that night was also far more than somewhat impaired - so JTR didn't have to be particularly cunning...

But also - what if the allegedly drunken gait witnessed by Schwartz happened actually to be the typically rolling gait of a sailor just landed? (not an uncommon sight perhaps in this particular area of London at that time)...and that peaked hat described by other witnesses? Begins to sound more interesting maybe?

All the best

Dave

Yes Cog. Absolutely. And All the evidence seems to point to stride being sober and eddowes being enibriated which is why stride probably didn't end up mutilated like eddowes.

Also, if jack was effed up that night it could help explain the seeming Change in mo with the attack on stride. It may have also led to him cutting himself while working on eddowes which led to him cutting her apron to use as a bandage. I'll stop there.

[Wickerman]

". . . That's right, dear. It's on the side next the building. I'll just insinuate myself between your good self and the building. And mind you hold on to those cachous."

Hi Lynn.
I can't see it being too debatable as to how a client manages to position himself behind a prostitute, sooner or later this arrangement is to be expected.

The cachous however are a problem regardless of what we try to envisage.
Hold on to those cachous she did, that is taken for granted.

[Sam Flynn]

Secondly, Stride had been in the company of a strange character "with weak eyes" that night at the Bricklayers Arms.
A 'strange character' with an "unnatural glare in his eyes" was seen outside the Britannia the night Mary Kelly was murdered.

I can't in all truth rule Stride out as a Ripper victim unless these issues are resolved somehow.

The description of Bricklayers-man given by Best strikes me as having a ring of truth, but the attributes Lewis/Kennedy ascribed to Britannia-man's gaze seem generic, with more than a whiff of the "madman" stereotype. "Strange character with unnatural glaring eyes" (Lewis/Kennedy) wouldn't look out of place in any penny-dreadful, but "Man with sore eyes and no eyelashes" (Best) seems rather more grounded in reality.

[lynn cates]

inopportune

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I can't see it being too debatable as to how a client manages to position himself behind a prostitute, sooner or later this arrangement is to be expected."

Quite. But some times are opportune, others not.

Cheers.
LC