Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[c.d.]

Hello Jon,

What motive are you assigning to this third man who was her killer?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

What motive are you assigning to this third man who was her killer?

c.d.

I think that scenario only works, or works best, if this 3rd man was 'Jack'.
Swanson also believed there was sufficient time to include the appearance of another man. But, he may have been there all along.

I think most people who object to Stride being a Ripper victim do so because they object to BSman being 'Jack'.
The above scenario allows for Stride to remain a Ripper victim while absolving BSman of culpability.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello CD

I think that other man would have been a client and that he was Jack. If she were a street veteran, and the whole B.S. man encounter was just a par for the course harassment, I see no reason for her to move to another spot.

For me at least, the dingy gateway to Dutfield's Yard seems the oddest place for Stride to hang out, if she'd wanted to attract clients.

I can see Jack hanging around Whitechapel Road (Nichols), Commercial Street (Chapman/Kelly) and Aldgate High St/Liverpool St (Eddowes), but Berner Street seems somehow too "out of the way", unless he knew Stride would be thereabouts. That's why I sense that, in her case, the killer had a more specific motive than the opportunistic murder and mutilation of a stranger.

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

Stride would not necessarily have had to have been actively soliciting to be approached by Jack and then all bets are off. Also, a place that has more potential customers is also going to have more competition for those customers.

Jack might have concluded that places where there were more prostitutes might also be places where there was a greater police presence.

We also don't know if it was his intention to kill that night. Something might have been triggered in him when he encountered Stride (which I think was the case).

c.d.

[Dr. John Watson]

I can see Jack hanging around Whitechapel Road (Nichols), Commercial Street (Chapman/Kelly) and Aldgate High St/Liverpool St (Eddowes), but Berner Street seems somehow too "out of the way", unless he knew Stride would be thereabouts. That's why I sense that, in her case, the killer had a more specific motive than the opportunistic murder and mutilation of a stranger.

Compared to the other Ripper murder sites, Mitre Square was also "out of the way" for Jack, which actually strengthens the case for the murders being connected. And it's not unheard of for a "good Samaritan" to rescue a female from danger, only to turn around and victimize her himself. The idea of a "third man" chasing away Broad Shoulders and smooth-talking Stride into Dutfield's Yard is certainly worth considering.

John

[Sam Flynn]

Compared to the other Ripper murder sites, Mitre Square was also "out of the way" for Jack

My previous post listed potential "pick-up points" for the other victims, rather than the venues of the murders. The "Canonical Four" I mentioned died in close proximity to main thoroughfares, where I presume they were solicited before being escorted the short distance to the places where they fell (or escorted the killer themselves). The same could be said of Martha Tabram.

In contrast, Stride seems to have stayed put in the relatively obscure Berner Street, following BS man's assault upon her. Not the sort of place I'd expect an opportunist killer to hang out on the off-chance of finding a victim.

[Damaso Marte]

The killer could have had non-solicitation reasons to be near Berner street. Kosminsky and Lechmere, to name just two suspects, either lived near the Stride murder scene or had family members who lived nearby.

[Wickerman]

We also don't know if it was his intention to kill that night. Something might have been triggered in him when he encountered Stride (which I think was the case).

c.d.

Not forgetting that Stride had been seen twice that night, both times with a man. So it is not unreasonable to conclude she was also with a man inside Dutfields Yard. Schwartz is the only witness we have to this incident and his attention was solely taken up with the actions of BS-man.
It is quite possible he never noticed another man in the shadows of the yard by the gate.

If her killer was 'Jack', he didn't meet her there, they went to Dutfields Yard together, in my opinion.

[lynn cates]

B S story

Hello CD. Your post, #415, is just about the most succinct argument I have seen to indicate why BSM is not a good candidate to have killed Liz.

But IF Schwartz's story is true, there can be little doubt that BSM did her. So maybe lose your last paragraph and accept that Israel's BS story was a BS story?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"May the Schwartz be with you--or not."

Hello Gareth. Your reply, #416, could have been written by me. And that is the OVERWHELMING reason I CANNOT believe the Schwartz tale.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

final step

Hello CD.

"2. He (Jack) was so aroused by what he saw that he decided to take his chances and went ahead with the murder."

Logically, why not:

"2'. He (Jack) was so aroused by what he saw that he decided to take his chances and went ahead with the murder--AND the mutilations."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Jon.

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."

Could this be emended to:

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure, AND TAKES OUT THE CACHOUS, the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Gareth.

"Berner Street seems somehow too "out of the way", unless he knew Stride would be thereabouts. That's why I sense that, in her case, the killer had a more specific motive than the opportunistic murder and mutilation of a stranger."

Bingo.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Your post, #415, is just about the most succinct argument I have seen to indicate why BSM is not a good candidate to have killed Liz.

But IF Schwartz's story is true, there can be little doubt that BSM did her. So maybe lose your last paragraph and accept that Israel's BS story was a BS story?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Well, I'm flattered (I think). I am assuming that you are referring to your body position argument. As has been pointed out before, even if we could prove with 100% metaphysical certainty that the fact that Stride's feet were pointing (fill in a direction) indicating X, we have absolutely no way of knowing if that was the direction she was facing when killed. Her killer could have moved her after cutting her throat. So to me, that argument is completely moot.

There is no evidence of a club conspiracy no matter how much you think it likely. And again, the police were willing to entertain the idea of another killer besides the B.S. man.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

coppers

Hello CD.

"Jack might have concluded that places where there were more prostitutes might also be places where there was a greater police presence."

And yet you believe he popped round to Mitre sq? No police there?

Cheers.
LC