Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Paddy]

Lipski

There was in fact a Lipski family living in Mile-End New Town at that time.
Lewis Lipski (born 1862 Poland) was a tailor and lived with wife Sarah. Their oldest of three young children was born in 1888 in Mile-End New Town, as were the two younger ones. They lived in Dunk Street in 1891..

The only other Lipski I could find was a Soloman Lipski born 1861 Russia, living in Cheetham Lancashire in 1891 census.
.

Pat....................................

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello (again) John. Actually, the doubts at Lehman st (Swanson did not doubt) were recorded in "The Star."

Abberline could not get Schwartz to say whom was the recipient of "Lipski."

Cheers.
LC

Mention of doubt in the Star doesn't really mean much if police records suggest just the opposite. And Abberline's failure to grasp what Schwartz was saying about "Lipski" sounds like an impatient cop frustrated with a hard to understand interpreter. My opinion of Abberline's skill as an interviewer has slipped a notch.

John

[Dr. John Watson]

What missing "Witness" files?

Hi Scott. I was referring to the Scotland Yard file titled "Suspects" from which hundreds of records "went missing" sometime in the 1980's, I believe. The file envelope[s] contained reports on individuals suspected of being the Ripper. It is known to have contained material on Kosminski, Druitt, Ostrog, Donston Stephenson, and likely many others like Tumblety perhaps. Also missing is a batch of reports listing all persons detained in connection with the murders since October 31, 1888. My guess is that a retired police official or perhaps an early researcher with connections obtained the file and then returned it minus the missing documents. Same thing happened with the original "Jack the Ripper" letter and photos of the victims, both of which were purloined but eventually returned to the Yard.

John

[harry]

Now 'Pipeman' is well within hearing and sight of what was going on at the entrance to the yard,but refrains from taking any part,instead he calmly stands and lights his pipe.That is, until Schwartz is almost on a level to him.He then makes a move which Schwartz senses is a danger to him(Schwartz),follows after Schwartz for a short distance,and that's it.If 'Pipeman'himself was scared,why didn't he precede Schwarts in fleeing the scene?

[moonbegger]

Once Schwartz crosses the street ( right to left ) he gets a better view of the right side of the street .. seeing PM standing in the doorway of the pub a few doors down from the assault , on the same side .. Once Schwartz is on the left hand side of the street and passing , he hears a cry and steps back .. the attacker calls to the man on the other side of the street ( in fact, at this moment , both men , & Liz are on the other side of street from Schwartz ) .

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

From Swansons notes...."12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski', and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

It seems Israel told Swanson, via interpreter, that Pipeman was across the street from where Liz and BSM were.

Cheers

Hello Mike , I read that as from Shwartz perspective .. Once he had crossed the street .. The person that was being called to by the assailant was indeed on the other side of the street .. putting pipe man on the same side as Liz and assailant .

cheers , moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Hello Lynn ,

It was not raining.

It was earlier ! and we have no idea how long PM was stood there ..

stops to light his pipe in the shelter of a doorway of a closed pub. after doing so, and shouting some abuse at a bully beating on his missus, . . ."

1, PM was not shouting ANYTHING.

According to Schwartz press statement he was

a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman,

And this ..

2. His missus? Why is she two doors down and he is loitering at the pub?

Not his missus Lynn BSM's missus

If Schwartz is to be believed, he is running away from BSM--just like Israel.

Not sure where you get from lynn ???

moonbegger

[Michael W Richards]

From Swansons notes...."12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out, apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, 'Lipski', and then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

It seems Israel told Swanson, via interpreter, that Pipeman was across the street from where Liz and BSM were.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Harry. On the other hand, if one is repeating a contrived story, one may become VERY confused when needing to explain some portion of it in greater detail.

Example: To whom was "Lipski" directed?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Wouldn't that also hold true if the question had to be translated into Hungarian and then the answer translated into English? I would also think that it could be quite difficult if he wasn't quite sure that what he heard was actually "Lipski" in the first place. Conveying "sounded like" as opposed to definitely heard is going to be tough in any language.

c.d.

[moonbegger]

Not only all that, but it cannot be agreed upon which side of the street PM was standing when first observed by Schwartz.

I think both reports have him standing in the doorway of the corner pub ( same side as Liz & assailant )

moonbegger

[Scott Nelson]

Not only all that, but it cannot be agreed upon which side of the street PM was standing when first observed by Schwartz.

[lynn cates]

Forecast calls for . . .

Hello MB. Thanks.

"Do we know how FGA could be so sure, and how he came to straighten it
out? Do we just have his conclusion that it was a racial slur pertaining to the earlier Lipski murder?"

Because FGA knew the East End cold. Also, you may wish to look at the reports on this in "The Ultimate."

"And finally how common was that name, and was an effort made to find a likely local Lipski?"

Yes, some search was made. No luck.

"Also .. PM steps out of the rain, . . ."

It was not raining.

". . . stops to light his pipe in the shelter of a doorway of a closed pub. after doing so, and shouting some abuse at a bully beating on his missus, . . ."

1, PM was not shouting ANYTHING.

2. His missus? Why is she two doors down and he is loitering at the pub?

". . .he heads back out into the drizzle, . . ."

No, not drizzling at that time.

". . . homeward bound, probably walking a little faster than he would had it been a dry night."

If Schwartz is to be believed, he is running away from BSM--just like Israel.

". . . not even paying any attention to Schwartz on the dark side of the street!"

Eh?

"Could a paranoid Schwartz also fit the bill?"

Even better if it were a "mendacious Schwartz."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Star

Hello (again) John. Actually, the doubts at Lehman st (Swanson did not doubt) were recorded in "The Star."

Abberline could not get Schwartz to say whom was the recipient of "Lipski."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Special Branch

Hello John. Thanks.

Actually, "JTR" had NOTHING to do with why the club was being watched. In fact, there was, at this time, NO "JTR." (Only a "Leather Apron" was of concern.)

No, they watched the club because they were anarchists. Same for the various "Irish" gathering places. That was the job of Special Branch.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Scott

I'm assuming he's referring, specifically in this instance, to the original witness statement taken by Abberline from Schwartz, which Swanson later precised...

All the best

Dave