Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[harry]

No doubt the killings,including Stride,were sudden,swift,accurate,and performed with intent,and it can be argued the killer"s state of mind,but to me it appears from the time the killer set out,his intention was to seek victims,and on several occasions he did so.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff , Thanks again.

which by definition, would allow for a very eventful couple of minutes at the very least . Plus it still ties together With Schwartz 12.45 , especially as Liz is not as of yet at her position outside the club where Schwartz will witness her .. The loose two minutes that Brown almost good as swears by is more than enough time for the scenario to play out .

Hi Moonbegger

Being one of those sad ripperologists whose dragged is poor unwilling partner to the location and paced it out via mobile phone. (i'm still in her bad books)

If Brown continues his course at speed to eat his lunch. Then by the time he's letting himself into his front door the incident at Dutchfeild yard is some way behind him and completely out of his POV.

Once he past the couple he describes he would have to make a 180 turn to see what happened and his POV would be down Fairclough street with no view of Dutfeild Yard or Fanny Mortimer.

I thank you for your chilling insight into the world of Schizophrenia Jeff , although I must admit I am not convinced Jack was part of that club .. Liz's killer on the other hand may well have been .

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

cheers moonbegger

I guess were running off topic here so I hope people dont mind me making a comment. I'm happy to take to another thread if it does.

But I'm not certain Jack has to be a charmer. Indeed he might appear more suspicious if he was. Wouldn't a cassual "Fancy a quick one" 'Yea alright price of a doss" "OK' "follow me" sort of conversation appear less strange?

Also the other attacks attributed to Jack the Ripper all show quite different MO's. A fashionable recent arguement being made that they were all the result of different people. Actually I see no evidence that serial killers don't change there MO's considerably. Especially opportune serial killers, whose crimes have many variables.

Smith- had an object pushed into her.
Tabram-frenzied knife attack
Nichols-TAken by surprise attacked from the from the front
Chapman-Taken by surprise attacked from the front

Both as you say took the killer to a quite place but we have no witnesses to the level of conversation...(perhaps Harriot Lilly and Mrs Long)

STRiDE - Throat cut attacked from behind
Eddows - Spoke to victim-took secluded spot-taken by surprise attacked from Behind (Possibly)
Kelly- Taken by surprise in her room, but proably led her killer there-attacked front through sheets.
Mylett - ? garrot might be a victim?
McKenzie - Attack (Not sure)
Coles - Possible random attack similar to Stride.

So a lot of variation. But all the attacks when they happened were forceful and violent. I've often wondered about that strange phraze in Swansons report 'She screamed three times but not vary loudly" doesnt it strike you as odd. What does that mean? Can someone scream 'Not vary loudly' or is this just someone struggling with translation? Someone trying to describe a Scream being muffled?

But just to continue the problems I'm also not certain that schizophrenics cant be perfectly charming and co-herent. Psychosis is something we still know very little about. Ronnie Kray for instance was a dyagnosed schizophrenic and I gather could have moments of being vary charming.

Then there are levels of Psycopathy, check this out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10737827/Psychopaths-how-can-you-spot-one.html

I'm following the Victor Patorious trial on TV at present. How many Olympic athletes would score vary high as 'Psychopaths'?

A number of serial killers including Brady have been dyagnosed as schizophrenics but they clear rate very high on the psychopath scale So the picture is far more blurred today than it has ever been.

I'd like to think its the one area, given better technology, that our understanding in the area of ripperology will improve the most over the next twenty years.

Anyway many thanks for your thought provoking comments. I am away for a few days so if i don't reply please don't think me rude.

Many thanks Jeff

[caz]

Testimony made Berner look a bit deserted. Perhaps the testimonies were false?

Hi Lynn,

What does 'a bit' deserted mean? It was either deserted or it wasn't. But the club certainly wasn't deserted, meaning that the attendees would have been coming or going at intervals, and presumably availing themselves of the outside lavs too. And it was the club where we know Stride was when she was accosted then murdered - or just murdered, for those who reject Schwartz's tale outright.

But Schwartz or no Schwartz, why doubt she could easily have been accosted in that situation, especially if club members were afterwards keen to deny any suggestion that prostitutes used their premises. The suggestion was only made because this was thought to be 'another' prostitute murder, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that any woman thought to be taking advantage of the club in this way might have been 'encouraged' to bugger off out of it.

"If he was the killer he could have seen his opportunity when BSM manhandled Stride, but had to make sure Schwartz was spooked before sending BSM packing and going in for the kill himself."

But Israel did not even linger. He was leaving the scene of action. Why not just hold your ground and wait a few more seconds?

Well he was walking away from it, but only started running when he thought PM might be chasing after him. And time would have been an issue. If PM had waited patiently for Schwartz to walk off out of sight before dealing with BSM, another three Schwartzs could have come along in the meanwhile. His aim would have been to entice Stride into the yard before any more passers-by could queer his pitch.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

An extra man is a fabrication.

But it's not a fabrication to seek to introduce extra men for these murders, when the ripper can't be ruled out - or proved a fabrication in his own right?

But if Schwartz did see the ripper, then BSM is he. But BSM clearly did no ripping.

And there are dozens of plausible explanations for no ripping on this occasion without the need to fabricate extra murderers for whom there is no actual evidence.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

time saver

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

If my understatement is disliked, very well--deserted.

Could Liz have been accosted? Sure. Did she die in a face to face fracas? No. Body position tells us that.

"If PM had waited patiently for Schwartz to walk off out of sight before dealing with BSM, another three Schwartzs could have come along in the meanwhile."

As well they might whilst he ran behind Schwartz. if fact, waiting on Israel to vanish would have SAVED time in the long run.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

the path not taken

Hello (again) Caroline. Thanks.

I think ANY scenario is fair game insofar as it provides a framework for research. On the other hand, when the real analysis begins, I like fabrication put far behind. I prefer to look only at the evidence.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

I believe Schwartz,like most people of that time,were familiar with persons under the influence,or drunk as they called it.So I would accept his description as applied to BS as being accurate.BS appeared drunk,probably was,and that being so,he might easily have been involved in some altercation with Stride,and not necessarily of his own making.What I cannot easily accept,is that the luring her into the yard,and cutting her throat so efficiently,was the handiwork of a drunk.

[Damaso Marte]

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

[GUT]

G'day Damaso Marte

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

I would agree with that assessment, but I can see why others may not.

[lynn cates]

well spoke

Hello Damaso. This is very well put.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello Damaso ,

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

Which came first .. The Chicken or the Egg

moonbegger

[robhouse]

Jacks MO was always , gain confidence and put his victim at ease . Something I think he was very accomplished at .. The same MO that would charm and reassure Annie into a dark back yard , and lure Kate to the darkest corner of a deserted square at the height of the murders .. Also convince Polly to lead him to a quiet spot .. None of these women were dragged kicking and screaming to the places where they were found murdered .. they were all willing accomplices to their own demise . The killer of these women was always in control of the situation and none of them would have suspected a thing until it was too late . Then we have Liz and her all too public street fight with BSM !

This, I think, is in the realm of creating the Ripper into a mythical super-villain, who never deviated from his MO, was always successful and efficient in his murders, etc. When you read the accounts of serial killers, even highly efficient ones, they often deviate from expected behavior, change their MO, they make mistakes, they act impulsively. Look at Kemper, Ridgeway, etc.
RH

[Abby Normal]

I've always said that either Stride was a Ripper victim, or Schwartz's testimony is legitimate, but not both. This is a good summation of why I hold that view.

Of course, I choose to discount Schwartz rather than discount Stride as a Ripper victim. But if one day Schwartz's account is backed up by something, I will immediately join the Stride-by-another-hand club.

Hi DM
it is. the peaked cap. The peaked cap is the key. it ties it all together including that the lawende suspect was also wearing a peaked cap and was the killer of eddowes who was a ripper victim. so stride was also a ripper victim. Schwartz was truthful and saw stride being attacked by the ripper. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

the ripper lost his temper(and usual MO) with stride, who would not go or take him to a secluded spot, after he wasted time and perhaps money on her. which is probably why she wound up with only a cut throat and not mutilated . surely a viscious serial killer can lose their temper?

[Abby Normal]

This, I think, is in the realm of creating the Ripper into a mythical super-villain, who never deviated from his MO, was always successful and efficient in his murders, etc. When you read the accounts of serial killers, even highly efficient ones, they often deviate from expected behavior, change their MO, they make mistakes, they act impulsively. Look at Kemper, Ridgeway, etc.
RH

Hi Rob
great post. totally agree.
Look at bundy and how he lost it at the sorority house. that was so unlike his usual MO.

[Wickerman]

Hi DM
it is. the peaked cap. The peaked cap is the key. it ties it all together including that the lawende suspect was also wearing a peaked cap and was the killer of eddowes who was a ripper victim.

"Peaked cap" is a pretty generic term though. Are we talking about a Sailors peaked cap, a railway workers peaked cap, a casual peaked cap, or a deerstalker peaked cap?
If we knew the exact same style was being referenced then it might mean something, only 'might' because peaked caps were common and cheap.