Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[GUT]

G'day Dr John

It's clear from Schwartz's statement that BSM did commit an assault on Stride in front of the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, but it likely did not involve striking her with his fist or with a weapon. From what I recall of the autopsy, aside from the obvious throat wound and a fresh bruise on the shoulder, doctors found no marks of a recent physical assault on Stride's face or body. Thus, it's entirely possible that the encounter Schwartz witnessed was nothing more than a man trying to force Stride off the footway and into the yard and she falling to the ground while resisting him. This possibility, of course, does not let BSM off the hook. He still assaulted Stride and tried to force her into the very yard where she was later found murdered. He is still a viable suspect as Stride's killer.

But even if BSM didn't kill her he May have been the cause of the bruise on her shoulder when he pushed her.

As the last person to have been seen with her alive he will always be a suspect unless more evidence comes to light.

[lynn cates]

tangled case

Hello MB. Thanks.

My pleasure. And your colourful phrase apples to MUCH of the case. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

conditional logic

Hello John. Of course, Liz had bruises on BOTH shoulders. Perhaps she shoved her with both hands?

But I will agree with this, IF Schwartz told the truth, THEN BSM killed Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bruising remarks

Hello GUT. Slight correction: bruise on shoulders--plural. The doctor thought this could be achieved by seizing her by the shoulders.

Of course, at inquest it was acknowledged that the bruises may have happened somewhat earlier.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

It's clear from Schwartz's statement that BSM did commit an assault on Stride in front of the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, but it likely did not involve striking her with his fist or with a weapon. From what I recall of the autopsy, aside from the obvious throat wound and a fresh bruise on the shoulder, doctors found no marks of a recent physical assault on Stride's face or body. Thus, it's entirely possible that the encounter Schwartz witnessed was nothing more than a man trying to force Stride off the footway and into the yard and she falling to the ground while resisting him. This possibility, of course, does not let BSM off the hook. He still assaulted Stride and tried to force her into the very yard where she was later found murdered. He is still a viable suspect as Stride's killer.

DJW,

If you can accept that can you accept maybe Schwartz didn't see an assult on Stride but instead just a random 'woman'? There are threads about Stride's bruises, the mud on her clothes (or lack there of since you'd assume she'd have more after being pushed down), the cachous she didn't drop, etc which all don't quite add up to what Schwartz witnessed. I suggest you have a peak at those and see what you think...was it really Stride he saw?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Well, if she really fell . . .

Lynn,

If Schwartz witnessed a struggle instead of a maiming which seems obvious, the 'woman' could have been pushed down and Stride could have been killed in relatively the same spot 15 minutes later.

I'm aware of your theory and reenactment and I can see the theory I presented work perfectly fine with yours if it wasn't Stride Schwartz being assulted.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

problems

Hello Roy. Thanks.

I agree that it could work. But here are the problems, I think.

1. It requires two assaults on the exact same spot, and within less than ten minutes of one another. Moreover, they must be carried out in a similar fashion, with the exception of the throat cut.

2. It requires a good explanation concerning why the first lady never came forward to explain.

3. It requires PM to stay quiet about what he saw.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

1. It requires two assaults on the exact same spot, and within less than ten minutes of one another. Moreover, they must be carried out in a similar fashion, with the exception of the throat cut.

Lynn,

What better place than one that is so dark and off the 'path'? Yes anyone could have come out but if a song were being sung would club members actually leave during that? Not even Diemschutz could see her and he was right over top of her. The street was quiet which could support or hinder the theory. Similar fashion based on your theory and reenactment?

2. It requires a good explanation concerning why the first lady never came forward to explain.

Any reason given would be speculative but I'm sure we both could come up with a lot of reasons.

3. It requires PM to stay quiet about what he saw.

Why? Even if it did, many believe Schwartz was sequestered partly for his safety so if PM knew of BSM's reputation or was a friend, neighbor, etc, etc perhaps he didn't come forward out of fear. We don't know what he saw either, perhaps the call of Lipski was enough to frighten him to run without him seeing anything worth reporting.

If Schwartz is to believed and apparently he was (which I again personally have never understood)...then why the 'woman' or PM or BSM never came forward must be for their own reasons but all this too would be speculation.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

speculative

Hello Roy. Thanks.

Yes, quite speculative.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But I will agree with this, IF Schwartz told the truth, THEN BSM killed Liz.

Ah, but Swanson already assumed Schwartz was being truthful, but he was still not convinced BSM was the killer.

[lynn cates]

behind his time

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That is correct. In my opinion--and if I may use a local expression--he was "a day late and a dollar short."

Cheers.
LC

[Sunbury]

Why is Schwartz believed over others?

Fanny Mortimer said she was on her doorstep at 36 Berner St between 12.30m to 1 am and never saw anything that Schwartz described.

Resident of 36 Berner Street who made a statement to the press regarding the night of Elizabeth Stride's murder:

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

James Brown saw a couple at approx 12.45am in Fairclough St

Brown, a dock labourer of 35 Fairclough Street, testified to seeing a woman with a man at 12.45am, 30th September 1888 in Fairclough Street whilst he was getting his supper from a chandler's shop on the corner with Berner Street. He saw the couple standing by the Board School; the woman had her back to the wall, facing the man who had his arm up against it. Brown heard the woman say "No, not tonight, some other night" which attracted his attention. There was no trace of an accent in the woman's voice.

Why do these witnesses get ignored and Schwartz treated as gospel?
If they are right, there is no BS man in Berner St, so many theories need revising.

[Wickerman]

Why do these witnesses get ignored and Schwartz treated as gospel?

Due to the report by Swanson.

Assuming we did not have this report, the news article by the Star suggesting Schwartz was rejected would be consistent with the fact he did not appear at the Inquest.
Some would argue that this is as good as conclusive proof as you can expect to see.

Which I think demonstrates just how flimsy our theories are when we know so much official paperwork is missing.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny Mortimer said she was on her doorstep at 36 Berner St between 12.30m to 1 am and never saw anything that Schwartz described.

Hi Sunbury. Actually, she would not have been at her door when Schwartz passed by. But she does note that Berner Street was dead, which actually corroborates that part of Schwartz's story. James Brown also puts Stride on the street at the same time in company with a man who to some degree resembles Pipeman. So none of this evidence is contradictory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Fanny

Hello Sunbury. A problem for Ms. Mortimer is that she seemed to miss a good deal that night.

Reliable?

Cheers.
LC