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Originally posted by FrankO
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Fanny did hear bootsteps Franko, she said that around 12:45, while indoors, she heard the heavy tramp of what she "suggested" were policemans boots. She didnt see anyone, she heard footsteps and thought they were policemans boots. Did she know that some women also wore heavy mens boots, or just regular street folk too? See Strides footwear for one, and Kates. Boots on cobbles are boots on cobbles if unseen, agttributing someone to those same boots is speculation, and she would have been warned about that had she presented this at the Inquest. So....Why isnt she there? Because she didnt see anyone other than Goldstein near the gates, and he walked past. What she didnt see would have zero bearing on what was happening with Liz. Now Israel...why isnt he telling his story to the Inquest jury, surely a sighting of the victim being assaulted just before being cut is relevant info to that question of How she dies. Why isnt he there? Dont know, but the fact he isnt makes him irrelevant to these discussions.
Lets review what Fanny is said to have stated....
" A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement . It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman....(speculation about who those boots belonged to)... passing the house on his beat". Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house,...(she heard a cart and pony about the time I would imagine quite a few people were gathering in that narrow passageway, and since its 1, it would be around the time the pony and cart would be taken to stable in George Yard. remember, Louis said he was going to offload and then stable the cart and pony)...... and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door,...(which is consistent with Fannys comments)... it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap....(purely speculative scenario offered by reporter, no evidence supports it). If this be a correct surmise,...(as I said, his speculation).... it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it,.. (Louis created this scenario, there is no evidence that supports him).. having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."
What that statement above suggests that perhaps she didnt see the killer enter the gates or leave by them, because the killer never left the confines of the passageway. It also suggests she heard boots around 12:45 running, and a cart and horse about 4 minutes after she went inside at 1am. it also suggests that Louis created the idea that the killer might have slipped past him, when there is no evidence anyone left that passageway at that time. It also suggests that the boots she heard around 12:45 could be just about anyone, perhaps Eagle, perhaps Issac K....perhaps Schwartz,... if you like cow pies.
There are things that are slightly different in other accounts...
"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36 Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy says:- "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. ...(establishes the troubled nature of the club, as both the police and neighbours saw them)...I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial Road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in the pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that they could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up, as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable judging by her clothes,... (establishes that Liz dressed nicely enough to be considered "respectable, not like a prostitue)...and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street about twenty yards away.... (identifies Browns couple)....before, and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."
All the time evidence from people who didnt work for or live at the club differs from the statements about times given by those people who were paid to be there and had accommodations there. Why is that cleanly divided? How come at least some unaffiliated witnesses didnt see what Israel says he saw, or Louis arriving,....How come Issac K himself doesnt back Louis's stated arrival time? How come Eagle didnt see Lave? If the killer didnt come from the street, then the club itself, the yard or the stables are the only places the killer could have come from. How come Lave didnt see anyone there? How come Wess didnt when he was leaving? Did the police think the same As I suggested when they searched the unused stables and the office located in that building? Did the police search the men, and the club, because they initially thought someone from there killed Stride? Is Israel Schwartz's BSM the offsite thug that intends to place the likely killer...from off the property and not from any straggling club attendees?
I freely admit that one must interpret data, it cannot be just accepted at face value, but would a serious investigator suggest changing witnesses given stated times so they better fit some of the evidence, or would an investigator follow the evidence that is corroborated to help ascertain the truth?
The people with the greatest risk of being accused of murder were the legally responsible people of that club. And they are the ones who give stories that without exception....have zero secondary validation.
The way Herlock complains about having this reality out there youd think I was trying to re-write history, when ironically im the one using secondary source statements.
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