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Originally posted by Michael W Richards
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Issac Kozebroski says he was called by Louis Diemshitz, who he referred to as Mr., at "about 20 minutes to 1". Issac had been inside, the club would have had a visible timepiece being a venue that held speeches, plays and other events. Issac also says he was "sent" by Louis or some "other member" for help.
An embarrassing start because I’d previously (and accurately) said that we have no idea of the location of the club clock (which we have no concrete proof even existed in the first place) and that we can’t know if Kozebrodsky would have been able to have seen it from his position, so you slip in the word ‘visible.’ How can you possibly know that Kozebrodsky could have seen the clock from where he’d been sitting when he heard about the body. Why do you have to resort to these kinds of leaps simply to defend the indefensible?
Abe Heschberg said he was alerted "about quarter to 1".
For a fuller picture he said “about a quarter to one I should think.” So, because he was using words, and words have meaning, we can see that Heshberg was merely estimating without a great deal of certainty. And exactly like Kozebrodsky we can’t know exactly when he’d last seen a clock.
Both these men were estimating but you prefer to rely on their estimates rather than a man who actual stated that he’d seen a clock.
Edward Spooner says he thought he accompanied Louis and some other member, (who is on record as being Issac[s]"), not Issac Kozebrodski...who said he was sent out, not accompanied out),
And despite posting the quote where it says that Isaacs and Kozebrodski were one and the same you turn a plotters blind eye so that you can deliberately alter the evidence.
as they returned to the club.. after first heading to Fairclough. He says that was "between half-past twelve and one o'clock".
Amazing! You’ve blatantly made that up. Spooner doesn’t mention between 12.30 and 1.00. He said 12.35 which simply cannot have been correct. But in the same piece he contradicts himself and says that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb. You use the above invention ‘between 12.30 and 1.00’ because you know that you can’t defend a suggestion which would have Lamb getting to the yard at 12.40.
Why would you stoop to this?
Issac Kozebroski finds Eagle at Commercial as Eagle has garnered the attention of PC Lamb, and returns to the club with them.
And its at this point in time, once Eagle and Lamb and Kozebrodski are already heading back, that we are told by Louis Diemshitz that he is just arriving at the gates.
This is why I suggest that despite the admirable efforts to recreate steps and times of witnesses....(which is based on a direct A-B progress, without a missed step here or there...or a pause factored in),
For ‘a pause’ you mean your humongous exaggeration in claiming that they’d have stood around for 10 or 15 minutes like statues before going for a Constable. If you can’t make a case fit…fabricate it.
the above is enough to indicate that based on Louis's timing, all the witness activity recorded up until the time Lamb, Eagle and Issac return to the gates must have happened AFTER 1am. Not 15-20 minutes before the time he claims he even arrived, which is the time multiple witnesses stated they saw and heard Louis and knew of the body in the passageway.
You’re the only person who looks at evidence and rather than seeing that a minority of witnesses ( two and a half) were simply in error you seek to believe the clueless minority and then suggest that the majority were all wrong. Good old conspiracy theory thinking.
And If those multiple witnesses were right....then what do we make of Lave and Eagle statements for around 12:40-12:45?
Which one if Lave’s do you refer to? Take your pick. But if Lave didn’t go back inside until 12.40 then the body couldn’t have been discovered at 12.45 or just before as you claim.
Or Israels claims about a sighting on the street right out front of the gates at 12:45?
No issue with that.
If Louis gave an accurate arrival time, then it would be likely that Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski actually arrived 10-15 minutes after 1am. After Johnson says he was already there, and 1 minute before Blackwell is there.
“It would be likely…” This is your opinion which no one really agrees with though. And of course, despite saying in the past that you are ok with accepting poorly synchronised clocks, you clearly aren’t because you are still quibbling over 5 minutes here and there. You refuse to consider that although the Bakers Clock said 1.00 the other clocks may have differed.
Blackwell 1.16, Lamb, in his own words, 10 minutes before him….so 1.06. That all that we need to know. Your three witnesses were wrong. The majority were right.
For those who seek to validate an argument supporting Louis's stated arrival time, you would unfortunately be left with ONLY Louis having the correct time, and everyone else being wrong.....Issac K, Abe, Spooner, Lamb, Blackwell and Phillips. Fanny, who was at her door until 1 and saw nothing arriving, would have her time also wrong by 10-15 minutes.
Repeating it won’t make it true. No one agrees with you….because you’re wrong.
Anyone who is satisfied with that kind or argument probably shouldnt be debating it with people who can cite evidence that directly contradicts Louis, and evidence that within the known scientific and physical realm, actions that result from an impetus cannot take place before that impetus is present.
Meaningless.
Ergo.....Eagle Lamb and Issac could not have arrived together at the gates at 1 if Louis is just arriving at 1.
I have no worries about defending reality against someone who believes something that no one else does. We’re still waiting for that one brave soul to pop up and say “there was a plot.” Perhaps we’re being too impatient for him or her to show up? It’s only been 20 years after all.
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