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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Issac Kozebroski says he was called by Louis Diemshitz, who he referred to as Mr., at "about 20 minutes to 1". Issac had been inside, the club would have had a visible timepiece being a venue that held speeches, plays and other events. Issac also says he was "sent" by Louis or some "other member" for help.

    An embarrassing start because I’d previously (and accurately) said that we have no idea of the location of the club clock (which we have no concrete proof even existed in the first place) and that we can’t know if Kozebrodsky would have been able to have seen it from his position, so you slip in the word ‘visible.’ How can you possibly know that Kozebrodsky could have seen the clock from where he’d been sitting when he heard about the body. Why do you have to resort to these kinds of leaps simply to defend the indefensible?

    Abe Heschberg said he was alerted "about quarter to 1".

    For a fuller picture he said “about a quarter to one I should think.” So, because he was using words, and words have meaning, we can see that Heshberg was merely estimating without a great deal of certainty. And exactly like Kozebrodsky we can’t know exactly when he’d last seen a clock.

    Both these men were estimating but you prefer to rely on their estimates rather than a man who actual stated that he’d seen a clock.


    Edward Spooner says he thought he accompanied Louis and some other member, (who is on record as being Issac[s]"), not Issac Kozebrodski...who said he was sent out, not accompanied out),

    And despite posting the quote where it says that Isaacs and Kozebrodski were one and the same you turn a plotters blind eye so that you can deliberately alter the evidence.

    as they returned to the club.. after first heading to Fairclough. He says that was "between half-past twelve and one o'clock".

    Amazing! You’ve blatantly made that up. Spooner doesn’t mention between 12.30 and 1.00. He said 12.35 which simply cannot have been correct. But in the same piece he contradicts himself and says that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb. You use the above invention ‘between 12.30 and 1.00’ because you know that you can’t defend a suggestion which would have Lamb getting to the yard at 12.40.

    Why would you stoop to this?

    Issac Kozebroski finds Eagle at Commercial as Eagle has garnered the attention of PC Lamb, and returns to the club with them.

    And its at this point in time, once Eagle and Lamb and Kozebrodski are already heading back, that we are told by Louis Diemshitz that he is just arriving at the gates.

    This is why I suggest that despite the admirable efforts to recreate steps and times of witnesses....(which is based on a direct A-B progress, without a missed step here or there...or a pause factored in),

    For ‘a pause’ you mean your humongous exaggeration in claiming that they’d have stood around for 10 or 15 minutes like statues before going for a Constable. If you can’t make a case fit…fabricate it.

    the above is enough to indicate that based on Louis's timing, all the witness activity recorded up until the time Lamb, Eagle and Issac return to the gates must have happened AFTER 1am. Not 15-20 minutes before the time he claims he even arrived, which is the time multiple witnesses stated they saw and heard Louis and knew of the body in the passageway.

    You’re the only person who looks at evidence and rather than seeing that a minority of witnesses ( two and a half) were simply in error you seek to believe the clueless minority and then suggest that the majority were all wrong. Good old conspiracy theory thinking.

    And If those multiple witnesses were right....then what do we make of Lave and Eagle statements for around 12:40-12:45?

    Which one if Lave’s do you refer to? Take your pick. But if Lave didn’t go back inside until 12.40 then the body couldn’t have been discovered at 12.45 or just before as you claim.

    Or Israels claims about a sighting on the street right out front of the gates at 12:45?

    No issue with that.

    If Louis gave an accurate arrival time, then it would be likely that Lamb, Eagle and Issac Kozebrodski actually arrived 10-15 minutes after 1am. After Johnson says he was already there, and 1 minute before Blackwell is there.

    “It would be likely…” This is your opinion which no one really agrees with though. And of course, despite saying in the past that you are ok with accepting poorly synchronised clocks, you clearly aren’t because you are still quibbling over 5 minutes here and there. You refuse to consider that although the Bakers Clock said 1.00 the other clocks may have differed.

    Blackwell 1.16, Lamb, in his own words, 10 minutes before him….so 1.06. That all that we need to know. Your three witnesses were wrong. The majority were right.


    For those who seek to validate an argument supporting Louis's stated arrival time, you would unfortunately be left with ONLY Louis having the correct time, and everyone else being wrong.....Issac K, Abe, Spooner, Lamb, Blackwell and Phillips. Fanny, who was at her door until 1 and saw nothing arriving, would have her time also wrong by 10-15 minutes.

    Repeating it won’t make it true. No one agrees with you….because you’re wrong.

    Anyone who is satisfied with that kind or argument probably shouldnt be debating it with people who can cite evidence that directly contradicts Louis, and evidence that within the known scientific and physical realm, actions that result from an impetus cannot take place before that impetus is present.

    Meaningless.

    Ergo.....Eagle Lamb and Issac could not have arrived together at the gates at 1 if Louis is just arriving at 1.

    Yes they could and not only could they, they did.

    I have no worries about defending reality against someone who believes something that no one else does. We’re still waiting for that one brave soul to pop up and say “there was a plot.” Perhaps we’re being too impatient for him or her to show up? It’s only been 20 years after all.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
      The general tone of the press regarding Schwartz's story was to portray him as somewhat of a coward, who ran off and let the woman die without at least confronting the perpetrator.
      That is easier said than done and the automated "fight or flight" response exhibited by Schwartz is not something to be criticized.
      If Schwartz was requested to attend the Inquest, then he had no legal mandatory obligation to attend, and if he had the choice, he may have decided he did not want to appear for fear of being judged or ridiculed for just running away and not helping a woman in perilous need.

      It could just be as simple as that.

      The only thing that is a fact, is that we know for certain there was no mandatory obligation for him to attend the inquest, because otherwise he would have appeared because he would of had no choice but to obey the law.

      So that proves he wasn't requested.


      Whether not being quested to attend, and not being
      needed to attend amount to the same thing, is down to opinion.

      The only way for him to have been requested and not attending would involve him braking the law and then going on the run/not being findable by the police. But I doubt this was the case with Schwartz.



      RD
      Hi all


      My apologies


      I made a typo in the post quoted above.


      I was meant to state that IF Schwartz was asked to attend the Inquest, then he WAS legally required to do so.


      Not important in the grand scheme of things, but still important to right a written wrong.


      For some reason I had mistakenly written the direct opposite; not sure why but I will put it down to fatigue as an excuse.


      If there's one thing that really grates on me; it's when I make a typo and then don't edit the post in time, so that it reads completely wrong.



      My apologies


      RD


      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • I was meant to state that IF Schwartz was asked to attend the Inquest, then he WAS legally required to do so.​

        And his non-attendance tells us what?

        c.d.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
          I was meant to state that IF Schwartz was asked to attend the Inquest, then he WAS legally required to do so.​

          And his non-attendance tells us what?

          c.d.
          He wasnt asked. Or called. Or however you wish to categorize it. His evidence was deemed not of value in determining how Liz Stride dies.....considering his story is about her being visibly assaulted within minutes of her murder, a few steps from its location, and just around the earliest cut time of Blackwell...hard to imagine why they wouldnt see that as valuable. But clearly, they didnt.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

            Yes they could and not only could they, they did.

            I have no worries about defending reality against someone who believes something that no one else does. We’re still waiting for that one brave soul to pop up and say “there was a plot.” Perhaps we’re being too impatient for him or her to show up? It’s only been 20 years after all.
            Let me just be sure I understand you....you say that Lamb, Issac Kozebrodski and Eagle could be arriving at the gates AS Louis arrives? Then why are Eagle and Issac running around for help, if the body hasnt even been discovered yet? Im an shocked that I have to repeat this to you. Its not that hard a question, can a search part look for help, find help, and return to the original location if no=one has told them about a body yet?

            Now would be the time for you to suggest changing everyones timing to match Louis's obvious lie he arrived at "precisely" 1.I keep writing prescisely.......witnesses generally dont stamp their times in stone, some like Louis did. Or Mrs Long. But neither are more believeable because they say they were "sure". Provably, Louis didnt arrive at 1, without any other witness contradictions than just Lambs.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

              He wasnt asked. Or called. Or however you wish to categorize it. His evidence was deemed not of value in determining how Liz Stride dies.....considering his story is about her being visibly assaulted within minutes of her murder, a few steps from its location, and just around the earliest cut time of Blackwell...hard to imagine why they wouldnt see that as valuable. But clearly, they didnt.
              And we (Herlock and I and possibly other posters) are still waiting to hear how you know this for a fact and were able to eliminate any other possible reason.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                He wasnt asked. Or called. Or however you wish to categorize it. His evidence was deemed not of value in determining how Liz Stride dies.....considering his story is about her being visibly assaulted within minutes of her murder, a few steps from its location, and just around the earliest cut time of Blackwell...hard to imagine why they wouldnt see that as valuable. But clearly, they didnt.
                It’s not hard to imagine at all. He didn’t see her actually being killed and the cause of death came from the Doctor alone. How was Schwartz qualified to comment on the cause of death?
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                  And we (Herlock and I and possibly other posters) are still waiting to hear how you know this for a fact and were able to eliminate any other possible reason.

                  c.d.
                  The problem is c.d. that we won’t get a proper. Michael just keeps repeating ‘he wasn’t called therefore the police didn’t trust him.’ It’s not true and it makes no sense but that’s what we get.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                  “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    . Edward Spooner says he thought he accompanied Louis and some other member, (who is on record as being Issac[s]"), not Issac Kozebrodski...
                    "A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up." - 1 October 1888 Irish Times.

                    And I'm fairly sure that Isaacs being Kozebrodsky has been pointed out to you. Repeatedly.

                    "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                    "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      Let me just be sure I understand you....you say that Lamb, Issac Kozebrodski and Eagle could be arriving at the gates AS Louis arrives? Then why are Eagle and Issac running around for help, if the body hasnt even been discovered yet? Im an shocked that I have to repeat this to you. Its not that hard a question, can a search part look for help, find help, and return to the original location if no=one has told them about a body yet?

                      You can’t seriously think that I’m proposing that so I can’t see why you bothered to write it. I’ve explained this numerous times Michael but you simply don’t wish to acknowledge it so you post as if I’ve never said it. So, again.

                      We can’t know how accurate or synchronised any clocks were and we can’t assume that estimates were accurate. This should go without saying but I constantly find myself having to repeat this.

                      Louis sees the Bakers Clock which said 1.00 (if we could check another clock at the time it might have said 12.55 or 12.57 or 1.03 this is why quibbling is utterly pointless) So Louis finds the body at 1.00 (Bakers clock time) he goes inside and comes back out and decides to go for a Constable. I and pretty much everyone else accepts that this would have taken 2 minutes or less. You disagree but the point is that none of us can estimate and exact time. He and Kozebrodsky go looking for a Constable.

                      Eagle doesn’t go at the same time. We know that Eagle only found out about the body from Gilleman so we have to ask ourselves is it likely that after Gilleman heard about the body from Louis he went straight upstairs? I’d suggest that this is highly unlikely and that he’d have first gone outside to look at the body. Then, at some point, whether he himself made the decision or whether someone said that those members upstairs should be informed, he then goes upstairs and tells the members, including Eagle. So if there was a gap of say 90 seconds or 2 minutes between Gilleman seeing the body and Eagle getting into the yard and deciding to go for a Constable then it would coincide with Kozebrodsky returning from the short journey into Fairclough Street. So Koz decides to go with Eagle to find a Constable. They find Lamb and return to the yard. Spooners ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ estimate was longer than it actually was. Probably 2 or 3 minutes.



                      Now would be the time for you to suggest changing everyones timing to match Louis's obvious lie he arrived at "precisely" 1.I keep writing prescisely.......witnesses generally dont stamp their times in stone, some like Louis did. Or Mrs Long. But neither are more believeable because they say they were "sure". Provably, Louis didnt arrive at 1, without any other witness contradictions than just Lambs.

                      If we’re sticking to times as you suggest then that must mean the body was found at 12.30 (as Spooner arrived at 12.35 apparently) and that Brown only heard the ghosts of men shouting for a Constable at around 1.00?

                      A little consistency would be appreciated Michael. First you don’t accept allowing for a margin for error, then you do (when it suits you), then you don’t, then you do (when it suits you) and now you are again complaining about this.

                      Louis said ‘precisely’ because the clock that he saw said ‘precisely’ 1.00 and he knew that he’d arrived at the club within a minute of seeing it. To call this use of ‘precisely’ as a lie is probably, no definitely, the most desperate thing I’ve heard in 35 years of interest in the case. I’m tired of having to respond to it.

                      There are no timing issues as long as you don’t do two things. 1. You don’t try and stretch out events to ludicrous lengths like Louis being at the yard 10 minutes before going for a Constable which is a clear distortion as all but you can see, and 2. That you don’t ignore the majority of witnesses in favour of Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and half of Spooner’s statement.



                      .
                      And all of this to defend a plan that’s been thoroughly trashed. It would be good if you could stick to individual points and respond to them instead of the scattergun approach that you employ.

                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                        "A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up." - 1 October 1888 Irish Times.

                        And I'm fairly sure that Isaacs being Kozebrodsky has been pointed out to you. Repeatedly.
                        It has Fiver. And recently. Ignored as inconvenient as usual though.
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                          Actually Mortimer confirms she heard a cart and horse while inside her house, its you folks that automatically have put Louis on that cart, not her.
                          That is a provably false statement on your part.

                          "A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband." - 1 October 1888 Evening News

                          This fact has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You ignoring it does not make it go away.

                          "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                          "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                            Hi all


                            My apologies


                            I made a typo in the post quoted above.


                            I was meant to state that IF Schwartz was asked to attend the Inquest, then he WAS legally required to do so.


                            Not important in the grand scheme of things, but still important to right a written wrong.


                            For some reason I had mistakenly written the direct opposite; not sure why but I will put it down to fatigue as an excuse.


                            If there's one thing that really grates on me; it's when I make a typo and then don't edit the post in time, so that it reads completely wrong.



                            My apologies


                            RD

                            Hi RD,

                            The Coroners Act was discussed a bit around here:

                            The Schwartz discussion rages on. But if it were shown conclusively that he did in fact lie what does that tell us about Stride's death and whether or not she was killed by the Ripper? Does it confirm a club conspiracy? Keep in mind that according to Schwartz Stride was still alive when he left the scene. c.d.
                            Thems the Vagaries.....

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              Actually Mortimer confirms she heard a cart and horse while inside her house, its you folks that automatically have put Louis on that cart, not her.

                              --------------------------------------​

                              That is a provably false statement on your part.

                              "A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband." - 1 October 1888 Evening News

                              This fact has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You ignoring it does not make it go away.
                              It also creates a rather large problem to suggest it was someone else in their pony and cart that she heard as it would mean that she heard a pony and cart go by that just so happens to have passed at a time that corresponds to when Deimshutz lies about when he went by (I'll call it the "coincidental cart"). And yet, she didn't see Deimshutz go by in his pony and cart much earlier, despite her claiming to have been on her doorstep nearly the whole time. Although one might try "he went by during her going inside briefly, since she said 'nearly the whole time'", that begs the question of why she didn't hear Deimshutz's pony and cart earlier given she can hear the coincidental cart (and yet, being inside is not accepted as the reason for her not hearing the much quieter 3 calls Stride is supposed to have made - I've used calls because the phrase "scream but not very loudly" creates semantic confusion; something got lost in translation I think).

                              Also, if everyone is supposed to be around the body earlier, as per Spooner let's say, then that places PC Lamb there much earlier as Spooner indicates PC Lamb arrives about 5 minutes after he does. But why doesn't PC Lamb not take note of Deimshutz's obvious fabrication of the time? And where are the witness statements concerning this coincidental cart, as it would have gone right passed the yard where everyone is gathered round? Nobody ever mentions it, and yet at times the location of Deimshutz's pony and cart gets raised as an issue despite him saying he moved it up further into the yard.

                              To suggest that the pony and cart that she reports hearing at 1ish is someone other than Deimshutz creates a huge amount of conflict, requires a very large coincidence (Deimshutz luckily picked that time for his arrival, which somehow she does not either see or hear - was he in stealth mode?), and it also gets worse if we include Spooner's time as PC Lamb must then be at the scene long before the time he states, and long after the time Deimshutz says he arrived!

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                                It also creates a rather large problem to suggest it was someone else in their pony and cart that she heard as it would mean that she heard a pony and cart go by that just so happens to have passed at a time that corresponds to when Deimshutz lies about when he went by (I'll call it the "coincidental cart"). And yet, she didn't see Deimshutz go by in his pony and cart much earlier, despite her claiming to have been on her doorstep nearly the whole time. Although one might try "he went by during her going inside briefly, since she said 'nearly the whole time'", that begs the question of why she didn't hear Deimshutz's pony and cart earlier given she can hear the coincidental cart (and yet, being inside is not accepted as the reason for her not hearing the much quieter 3 calls Stride is supposed to have made - I've used calls because the phrase "scream but not very loudly" creates semantic confusion; something got lost in translation I think).

                                Also, if everyone is supposed to be around the body earlier, as per Spooner let's say, then that places PC Lamb there much earlier as Spooner indicates PC Lamb arrives about 5 minutes after he does. But why doesn't PC Lamb not take note of Deimshutz's obvious fabrication of the time? And where are the witness statements concerning this coincidental cart, as it would have gone right passed the yard where everyone is gathered round? Nobody ever mentions it, and yet at times the location of Deimshutz's pony and cart gets raised as an issue despite him saying he moved it up further into the yard.

                                To suggest that the pony and cart that she reports hearing at 1ish is someone other than Deimshutz creates a huge amount of conflict, requires a very large coincidence (Deimshutz luckily picked that time for his arrival, which somehow she does not either see or hear - was he in stealth mode?), and it also gets worse if we include Spooner's time as PC Lamb must then be at the scene long before the time he states, and long after the time Deimshutz says he arrived!

                                - Jeff
                                And the emboldened point above is a valuable one which tends to get lost (or glossed over) It goes without saying that the police knew far more than we do and that they weren’t complete idiots; they wanted this man caught. They interviewed all of the club members and the staff plus the neighbours plus those that lived in Berner Street (and probably Fairclough Street and others) and this resulted in them having no doubts about what time the body was discovered. Why didn’t they question the 1.00 discovery time in light of Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and Spooner? Who knows what snippets were available to them but don’t survive or weren’t made a big deal of. As they had Diemschitz statement and Fanny saying that she’d heard a horse and cart how do we know that someone else in Berner Street didn’t say that they also heard, or even saw, Diemschitz pass? How do we know that someone in Fairclough Street didn’t look out of their window and see him and Kozebrodsky running along at just after 1.00?

                                Another important point is this - The suggestion is that the club members were involved in a plot, the crux of which was to fool the police into thinking that the body was found at 1.00 rather than 20 minutes or so earlier. This would have meant ensuring that they were all ‘on message’ of course. It’s plot creation step one - ensure that everyone knows what’s going on so that they can’t inadvertently spill the beans. The only person that we have specific evidence of Louis being close to is Kozebrodsky, as he went looking for a Constable with him, so how is it even remotely possible that Louis couldn’t have got him ‘on message.’ Did he forget to tell him about the plan? Was he deaf and didn’t hear the part about the body being found at 1.00? Did Kozebrodsky have a terrible memory?

                                Kozebrodsky, Heschberg and Spooner (his 12.35 but not his ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ of course) were simply mistaken in their estimations. The police at the time knew and we know it.
                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                                Comment

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